Friday, August 8, 2008
Donna Demok's Hearts and Flowers Series Hits the tube
LAKEWOOD, CO (IFS) - The Circle of Violence Against Women Institutes's yearly campaign against violence took to the small screen in hyperspace, as Donna Demok's straight up interview with SDCTV's Armel Jaccaro this past week.
Demok's request for women to ban together to help abused mothers and their children.
Demok's topic for the few short ten minute interview revolved around the usage of "Hearts and Flowers" after a big family fight. "In some cases, Demok says, "lots of gifts, trips, jewelry, you name it."
Demok further explains how everyone of us are captive of our own circle of violence, and tells how to break this cycle. See it all on youtube.com. Just type in Donna Demok to get the video presentation.
Wednesday, July 9, 2008
America's Nomads - The Rainbow Family of the Living Light
America's Nomads - The Rainbow Family of the Living Light
by Kenny Smith for IFS
BIG SANDY, WY (IFS) The Rainbow Family of the Living Light gathered in Big Sandy, WY for the 35th annual event. The population grew to 10,200 participates including 200 US Forestry Services Law Enforcement officers on their annual training excerise.
Approximately 1,200 tickets were issued by these officers to individuals for various offenses. These officers search everyone and vehicles for the most "smallest" infraction. Dogs was the choice of these searches. The most unique incident occurred during the 3rd of July when, the forest officers fired over 20 rubber bullets into one person at the Kiddie Village area of the gathering.
The sheriff's son was found dead several miles from the gathering. He was under medical supervision and was off his meds and had commited suicide there. Many of the young people at the gather did participate in the search early on.
Overall the gathering was a success down from the big numbers in the past. The Casper newspaper stated in large leading headlines "Rainbow Family Dispaces Boy Scouts". This headlin was very deceiving, as the artcle moved on the praised the family, and their economic bump to the local town of Pinedale, WY that placed over $1.5 million in their coffers.
One visitor from Israel was a one star general in the Army. Other visitor included a young international cultural studies student from Japan.
The ADAPT group from Denver started protesting the Rainbow Family for not preparing entrance ways for the handicap members who could not "go home" to the area three miles away to the gathering. Wheelchair access for these people was not provided.
Sunday, June 15, 2008
Rainbow Family of the Living Light Gathering July 1 - July 4th /Big Sandy, WY
Rainbow Family of the Living Light Gathering July 1 - July 4th /Big Sandy, WY / 42 degrees North 36 minutes by 109 degrees West 14 minutes
Rainbow Family of the Living Light Gathering
- Jun 22-Jul 7 -
Big Sandy, WY -
42 degrees North 36 minutes by 109 degrees West 14 minutes
Take the Rock Springs, WY exit North - approximately 50 miles
Exclusive by the Traveler, elder map reader for festival
Big Sandy, WY (IFS) Expectation for the Old "Hippies" music party of the year. This year, 12 kitchens, In your backyard. Get that old sleeping bag out, bring a bliss kit (cup, bowl and saucer). It's near a river on the Big Sandy Creek, WY.
Area History
Sweetwater County is the perfect place to explore American history. Petroglyphs on White Mountain preserve the pictorial language of the prehistoric people from our region. Also, still carved into the earth are the wagon wheel ruts of the pioneer trails.
Highway 28 parallels the Oregon, Mormon Pioneer, Pony Express and California National Historic Trails. There are some of the finest trail remains in the United States.
There are over 100 miles of pioneer trail ruts in Sweetwater County that remain as they were over 150 years ago. Brown's Park and Jarvie Ranch
Along the lower Green River, in a canyon that evolved eons ago in the Uinta Range, lies a valley lush and green in the summer and protected from the harsh western winter winds. It is uncertain how Brown's Park, or Brown's Hole, got its name, but it appears to be a quiet and serene place where nothing bad could ever happen. That appearance is deceiving.
Although evidence shows that Native Americans had used the valley for generations, the first white man to settle there was probably George Baggs. Baggs was a drover who moved several hundred head of cattle into Brown's Park in the late fall of 1871. He planned to only wait out the winter, but stayed there with his common-law wife for many years. Gradually, more and more cattlemen learned about the valley and its lush forage. Ranches began to crop up all through the area and soon a community was born.
Because of its isolation and yet its proximity to main trails of the old days, Brown's Park became a favorite spot for outlaws and those wishing to disappear for awhile. With only two ways in and out of the park, it is easy to understand its popularity. Outlaws would frequently stop at one of the ranches for food, water, or a fresh horse. The people of the community minded their own business and weren't overly concerned about a person's background, as long as the person was honest and fair with the folks of the area.
Two frequent visitors were Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. Both men were largely accepted in the area because they were polite and helpful. As one old-timer put it, "They never stole from us, just the railroad." They had a kind of "Robin Hood" reputation in Brown's Park.
Amelia Teters related childhood memories of the family returning to their ranch, from a trip to town, and finding that someone had been in the cabin and eaten a meal. "There would be a silver dollar lying by the dirty dishes, to pay for whatever was used," she said. It was unheard of to turn a stranger away, even if he might be an outlaw.
One of the most famous and well-loved people in the valley was John Jarvie. Jarvie migrated from Scotland when he was in his mid-twenties. He decided on Wyoming Territory as the place to start his new life and, in 1871, opened a saloon on North Front Street in Rock Springs. He met young Nellie Barr in 1881 and they were married almost immediately. They decided to move to Brown's Park and open a store to supply the residents of the valley. The Jarvies eventually built a nice home but, at first, they lived in a cozy dugout in a hill near the riverbank. The dugout is still there and is part of the historic site.
The folks in the valley loved John and Nell Jarvie and appreciated having a store close by. The Jarvies were good to the community and raised a large family there. But the tradition of helping out was the undoing of John Jarvie.
On July 6, 1909, Jimmy Jarvie, the youngest of John's brood, rode up to the house, expecting his dad to meet him on the porch. Instead, he found blood pooled in drying puddles and drag marks in the dirt. He followed the trail to the river and there he spotted a clump of long white hair snagged on a bush - hair like his father's. Back at the cabin, young Jarvie found the house ransacked. On the table was evidence of an unfinished meal and an open jug of whiskey.
A hew and cry went up throughout the community and folks searched for John Jarvie's body and the two men suspected of robbing and killing him. George Hood, who was known to dislike Jarvie, had been seen with another man going toward the Jarvie Store on the day before the disappearance. The ranchers sent to Rock Springs for the sheriff and, meanwhile, began trying to pick up the trail of the killers. It was a week before the body of the murdered man was found. Archie Jarvie found his father 20 miles downstream on the Green River he so loved. He was tied to his overturned rowboat and had been beaten and shot in the back. Although two $500 rewards were offered and posses roamed the hills and hidden canyons for months, Hood and his partner were never found.
Visitors to Brown's Park can see the dugout that John and Nell lived in as newlyweds, and the stone house where John met his fate.
Expedition Island
Expedition Island, near the present day town of Green River, Wyoming, was the starting point for the two expeditions down the Green and Colorado Rivers led by Major John Wesley Powell in 1869 and 1871. On these expeditions Powell completed the exploration of the last, large, unknown land area in the continental United States. Exploration of the unknown Colorado River by Powell and his crew opened up a new era for the nation. New concepts of conservation, reclamation, forestry and water management, geological and geographical surveys, and a whole new and scientific approach to the western lands ensued. It was listed on the National Register of Historic Places on April 16, 1969.
Live Ghost Town
Superior, WY
(307) 362-8173
This town, forgotten by time, was once a bustling town of more than 3,000 residents lured by underground coalmines. Today, only 275 hearty souls keep this isolated ghost town alive. Sites include all but vanished old town buildings, old dumpsites and areas for wildlife and wild horse viewing. For other ghost towns in Wyoming, click here.
Granger Stage Station
The Granger Station is a Wyoming State Historic Site located in Granger, Wyoming. The site contains one building constructed of cut native stone joined with lime-sand mortar.
The building was probably constructed around 1861-62. There has been some controversy and confusion over the date of the construction of this building. There was a stage station called the Ham’s Fork station located nearby. This station was a very crude dugout building set against a rise. It was described in less than glowing terms by an early traveler, Sir Richard Burton. “It was a disgrace; the squalor and filth were worse almost than the two—Cold Springs and Rock Creek—which had called our horrors, and which had always seemed to be the ne plus ultra of Western discomfort. The shanty was made of dry stone piled up against a dwarf cliff to save backwall, and ignored doors and windows.”
Historic Trails
Six Historic Trails sites (South Pass Overlook, False Parting-of-the-Ways, Big Sandy Crossing, Simpson's Hollow, Pilot Butte Trail Site, and Lombard Ferry) are located on Wyoming Highway 28 between the South Pass Rest Stop (east of Farson) and the Green River (west of Farson).
In Sweetwater County, Highway 28 parallels the Oregon, Mormon Pioneer, Pony Express, and California National Historic Trails. Intact trail ruts are visible at the False Parting-of-the-Ways, Simpson's Hollow, and Pilot Butte Trail sites.
Pilot Butte Trails Site is approximately 12 miles west of Farson on Wyoming Highway 28. This Bureau of Land Management Historic Interpretive Site offers signs about the Pilot Butte Trails landmark, Indian-Emigrant relations, and Transcontinental Telegraph. Signs are adjacent to trail ruts of the Oregon, Mormon Pioneer, Pony Express, and California National Historic Trails.
The Pony Express Route runs from South Pass, in Sublette County, to Pacific Springs, to Dry Sandy, to Little Sandy, to Big Sandy and Farson, to Big Timber, to Michael Morrins, to Hams Fork, to Church Buttes, to Millersville, and to Fort Bridger.
The Cherokee Trail runs north of Baggs, Wyoming, to the old Emigrant trail, east of US Highway 191, crossing Dans Creek and Little Bitter Creek south of Rock Springs, across Sage Creek (twice), crossing the Green River just above the Blacks Fork River Confluence, and to the Lone Tree Station.
The Overland Trail was the stagecoach route which ran across Bridger Pass, in Carbon County, to Sulphur Springs, Washakie, Duck Lake, Dug Spring, Fort LaClede, Black Buttes, Point of Rocks, Salt Wells, Rock Springs, Green River, Lone Tree Station, Granger, and on into Fort Bridger. Remnants of stage stations along the trail can be found with easy access at Point of Rocks (along I-80) and Granger (a short distance north of I-80).
Old Emigrant Trail runs from Bridger Pass, on the Overland Trail, to Fort LaClede, turns southwest until it meets up with the Cherokee Trail on the Little Bitter Creek, then to Lone Tree Station; it follows the Overland Trail until Fort Bridger, then turns northwest through the Bridger Antelope Trap.
A high-clearance or four-wheel-drive vehicle and dry road conditions are recommended for access to many of the trail areas.
These are some of the finest trail remains in the United States; please respect them and protect them.
For more information on the historic trails, please visit the BLM website.
The Overland Trail
So the invitation reads like this, expecting approximately 25,000 family members, bring all supplies necessary for camping for two weeks. The best selling RV for this festival, is the 1977 Ford 21 foot Cab over RV. Very good mileage, reliable engine, just big enough and easy to manage -- and costing $3,700 average across the country.
Things to trade:
BUG SPRAY
CHOCOLATE
ICE CREAM
LOVE BEADS
Toilet Paper
Bottled Water
All Toiletries
Flashlights - all sizes
Lighters
Food stuffs
CD's
Videos
Radios
pencils
paper
index cards
Things to do there:
26 music camps and theatres
Poetry camps
Dancing
Meditation camps
Local Media News Video Camps
Rainbow Family Seniors Retirement Planning Camps
Social Security Information Camps
The Nursing Camps for First Aid
Food Sampling kitchens
==============================
DIRECTIONS / FESTIVAL / FYI
==============================
First, know WY laws!!
RAINBOW FAMILY OF THE LIVING LIGHT
JUNE 22, 2008 THRU JULY 7, 2008
FESTIVAL = JULY 1ST THRU JULY 4TH
BIG SANDY, WY
EXIT ROCK SPRINGS, WY AND DRIVE NORTH. JUST FOLLOW ALL THE PEOPLE, AND PICK UP A COUPLE OF BROTHERS AND SISTERS ALONG THE ROAD TO THE FESTIVAL.
SDC OmniMedia Group
http://www.sdcog.net
InterNetics EMagazine
http://sdcinternetics.blog.com
KDTN Radio One Network
http://www.live365.com/stations/kdtn
KDTN Radio One Music Reviews
http://kdtnradio.blog.com
International Federated Syndicated News Writers (IFS)
http://ifsyndicate.blogspot.com
The Original SmithBits Magazine(est.1967)
http://smithbits.blogspot.com
Platinum Sound Recording Studios
http://www.indabamusic/people/platinumsound
Rainbow Family of the Living Light Gathering
- Jun 22-Jul 7 -
Big Sandy, WY -
42 degrees North 36 minutes by 109 degrees West 14 minutes
Take the Rock Springs, WY exit North - approximately 50 miles
Exclusive by the Traveler, elder map reader for festival
Big Sandy, WY (IFS) Expectation for the Old "Hippies" music party of the year. This year, 12 kitchens, In your backyard. Get that old sleeping bag out, bring a bliss kit (cup, bowl and saucer). It's near a river on the Big Sandy Creek, WY.
Area History
Sweetwater County is the perfect place to explore American history. Petroglyphs on White Mountain preserve the pictorial language of the prehistoric people from our region. Also, still carved into the earth are the wagon wheel ruts of the pioneer trails.
Highway 28 parallels the Oregon, Mormon Pioneer, Pony Express and California National Historic Trails. There are some of the finest trail remains in the United States.
There are over 100 miles of pioneer trail ruts in Sweetwater County that remain as they were over 150 years ago. Brown's Park and Jarvie Ranch
Along the lower Green River, in a canyon that evolved eons ago in the Uinta Range, lies a valley lush and green in the summer and protected from the harsh western winter winds. It is uncertain how Brown's Park, or Brown's Hole, got its name, but it appears to be a quiet and serene place where nothing bad could ever happen. That appearance is deceiving.
Although evidence shows that Native Americans had used the valley for generations, the first white man to settle there was probably George Baggs. Baggs was a drover who moved several hundred head of cattle into Brown's Park in the late fall of 1871. He planned to only wait out the winter, but stayed there with his common-law wife for many years. Gradually, more and more cattlemen learned about the valley and its lush forage. Ranches began to crop up all through the area and soon a community was born.
Because of its isolation and yet its proximity to main trails of the old days, Brown's Park became a favorite spot for outlaws and those wishing to disappear for awhile. With only two ways in and out of the park, it is easy to understand its popularity. Outlaws would frequently stop at one of the ranches for food, water, or a fresh horse. The people of the community minded their own business and weren't overly concerned about a person's background, as long as the person was honest and fair with the folks of the area.
Two frequent visitors were Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. Both men were largely accepted in the area because they were polite and helpful. As one old-timer put it, "They never stole from us, just the railroad." They had a kind of "Robin Hood" reputation in Brown's Park.
Amelia Teters related childhood memories of the family returning to their ranch, from a trip to town, and finding that someone had been in the cabin and eaten a meal. "There would be a silver dollar lying by the dirty dishes, to pay for whatever was used," she said. It was unheard of to turn a stranger away, even if he might be an outlaw.
One of the most famous and well-loved people in the valley was John Jarvie. Jarvie migrated from Scotland when he was in his mid-twenties. He decided on Wyoming Territory as the place to start his new life and, in 1871, opened a saloon on North Front Street in Rock Springs. He met young Nellie Barr in 1881 and they were married almost immediately. They decided to move to Brown's Park and open a store to supply the residents of the valley. The Jarvies eventually built a nice home but, at first, they lived in a cozy dugout in a hill near the riverbank. The dugout is still there and is part of the historic site.
The folks in the valley loved John and Nell Jarvie and appreciated having a store close by. The Jarvies were good to the community and raised a large family there. But the tradition of helping out was the undoing of John Jarvie.
On July 6, 1909, Jimmy Jarvie, the youngest of John's brood, rode up to the house, expecting his dad to meet him on the porch. Instead, he found blood pooled in drying puddles and drag marks in the dirt. He followed the trail to the river and there he spotted a clump of long white hair snagged on a bush - hair like his father's. Back at the cabin, young Jarvie found the house ransacked. On the table was evidence of an unfinished meal and an open jug of whiskey.
A hew and cry went up throughout the community and folks searched for John Jarvie's body and the two men suspected of robbing and killing him. George Hood, who was known to dislike Jarvie, had been seen with another man going toward the Jarvie Store on the day before the disappearance. The ranchers sent to Rock Springs for the sheriff and, meanwhile, began trying to pick up the trail of the killers. It was a week before the body of the murdered man was found. Archie Jarvie found his father 20 miles downstream on the Green River he so loved. He was tied to his overturned rowboat and had been beaten and shot in the back. Although two $500 rewards were offered and posses roamed the hills and hidden canyons for months, Hood and his partner were never found.
Visitors to Brown's Park can see the dugout that John and Nell lived in as newlyweds, and the stone house where John met his fate.
Expedition Island
Expedition Island, near the present day town of Green River, Wyoming, was the starting point for the two expeditions down the Green and Colorado Rivers led by Major John Wesley Powell in 1869 and 1871. On these expeditions Powell completed the exploration of the last, large, unknown land area in the continental United States. Exploration of the unknown Colorado River by Powell and his crew opened up a new era for the nation. New concepts of conservation, reclamation, forestry and water management, geological and geographical surveys, and a whole new and scientific approach to the western lands ensued. It was listed on the National Register of Historic Places on April 16, 1969.
Live Ghost Town
Superior, WY
(307) 362-8173
This town, forgotten by time, was once a bustling town of more than 3,000 residents lured by underground coalmines. Today, only 275 hearty souls keep this isolated ghost town alive. Sites include all but vanished old town buildings, old dumpsites and areas for wildlife and wild horse viewing. For other ghost towns in Wyoming, click here.
Granger Stage Station
The Granger Station is a Wyoming State Historic Site located in Granger, Wyoming. The site contains one building constructed of cut native stone joined with lime-sand mortar.
The building was probably constructed around 1861-62. There has been some controversy and confusion over the date of the construction of this building. There was a stage station called the Ham’s Fork station located nearby. This station was a very crude dugout building set against a rise. It was described in less than glowing terms by an early traveler, Sir Richard Burton. “It was a disgrace; the squalor and filth were worse almost than the two—Cold Springs and Rock Creek—which had called our horrors, and which had always seemed to be the ne plus ultra of Western discomfort. The shanty was made of dry stone piled up against a dwarf cliff to save backwall, and ignored doors and windows.”
Historic Trails
Six Historic Trails sites (South Pass Overlook, False Parting-of-the-Ways, Big Sandy Crossing, Simpson's Hollow, Pilot Butte Trail Site, and Lombard Ferry) are located on Wyoming Highway 28 between the South Pass Rest Stop (east of Farson) and the Green River (west of Farson).
In Sweetwater County, Highway 28 parallels the Oregon, Mormon Pioneer, Pony Express, and California National Historic Trails. Intact trail ruts are visible at the False Parting-of-the-Ways, Simpson's Hollow, and Pilot Butte Trail sites.
Pilot Butte Trails Site is approximately 12 miles west of Farson on Wyoming Highway 28. This Bureau of Land Management Historic Interpretive Site offers signs about the Pilot Butte Trails landmark, Indian-Emigrant relations, and Transcontinental Telegraph. Signs are adjacent to trail ruts of the Oregon, Mormon Pioneer, Pony Express, and California National Historic Trails.
The Pony Express Route runs from South Pass, in Sublette County, to Pacific Springs, to Dry Sandy, to Little Sandy, to Big Sandy and Farson, to Big Timber, to Michael Morrins, to Hams Fork, to Church Buttes, to Millersville, and to Fort Bridger.
The Cherokee Trail runs north of Baggs, Wyoming, to the old Emigrant trail, east of US Highway 191, crossing Dans Creek and Little Bitter Creek south of Rock Springs, across Sage Creek (twice), crossing the Green River just above the Blacks Fork River Confluence, and to the Lone Tree Station.
The Overland Trail was the stagecoach route which ran across Bridger Pass, in Carbon County, to Sulphur Springs, Washakie, Duck Lake, Dug Spring, Fort LaClede, Black Buttes, Point of Rocks, Salt Wells, Rock Springs, Green River, Lone Tree Station, Granger, and on into Fort Bridger. Remnants of stage stations along the trail can be found with easy access at Point of Rocks (along I-80) and Granger (a short distance north of I-80).
Old Emigrant Trail runs from Bridger Pass, on the Overland Trail, to Fort LaClede, turns southwest until it meets up with the Cherokee Trail on the Little Bitter Creek, then to Lone Tree Station; it follows the Overland Trail until Fort Bridger, then turns northwest through the Bridger Antelope Trap.
A high-clearance or four-wheel-drive vehicle and dry road conditions are recommended for access to many of the trail areas.
These are some of the finest trail remains in the United States; please respect them and protect them.
For more information on the historic trails, please visit the BLM website.
The Overland Trail
So the invitation reads like this, expecting approximately 25,000 family members, bring all supplies necessary for camping for two weeks. The best selling RV for this festival, is the 1977 Ford 21 foot Cab over RV. Very good mileage, reliable engine, just big enough and easy to manage -- and costing $3,700 average across the country.
Things to trade:
BUG SPRAY
CHOCOLATE
ICE CREAM
LOVE BEADS
Toilet Paper
Bottled Water
All Toiletries
Flashlights - all sizes
Lighters
Food stuffs
CD's
Videos
Radios
pencils
paper
index cards
Things to do there:
26 music camps and theatres
Poetry camps
Dancing
Meditation camps
Local Media News Video Camps
Rainbow Family Seniors Retirement Planning Camps
Social Security Information Camps
The Nursing Camps for First Aid
Food Sampling kitchens
==============================
DIRECTIONS / FESTIVAL / FYI
==============================
First, know WY laws!!
RAINBOW FAMILY OF THE LIVING LIGHT
JUNE 22, 2008 THRU JULY 7, 2008
FESTIVAL = JULY 1ST THRU JULY 4TH
BIG SANDY, WY
EXIT ROCK SPRINGS, WY AND DRIVE NORTH. JUST FOLLOW ALL THE PEOPLE, AND PICK UP A COUPLE OF BROTHERS AND SISTERS ALONG THE ROAD TO THE FESTIVAL.
SDC OmniMedia Group
http://www.sdcog.net
InterNetics EMagazine
http://sdcinternetics.blog.com
KDTN Radio One Network
http://www.live365.com/stations/kdtn
KDTN Radio One Music Reviews
http://kdtnradio.blog.com
International Federated Syndicated News Writers (IFS)
http://ifsyndicate.blogspot.com
The Original SmithBits Magazine(est.1967)
http://smithbits.blogspot.com
Platinum Sound Recording Studios
http://www.indabamusic/people/platinumsound
Thursday, April 24, 2008
Jenna Bush Supports WHO for President?
Jenna, Jenna, Jenna! You really have grown up. The former party girl turned teacher turned children's book author let it slip on CNN's "Larry King Live" that she's not sure she'll vote for presumptive Republican presidential nominee John McCain and even left open the possibility she'll support either Sen. Barack Obama or Sen. Hillary Clinton. Wait...what?
Tuesday, April 15, 2008
FLDS mothers say Texas officials lied to them
By Keith Johnson, Deseret News
Texas authorities executed a carefully orchestrated plan to force dozens of Fundamentalist LDS Church mothers into leaving their children behind in state care, said women who spoke to reporters at the YFZ Ranch Monday night.
10:27 a.m. |
Some of the FLDS mothers who were sent home without their children console one another at the Yearning for Zion ranch near Eldorado, Texas.
David | 1:10 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
This is outrageous beyond belief. I'm thinking of my numerous nephews and nieces, particularly ages 6 and under...I can't imagine them being away from their parents for a night, let alone a couple weeks/months. The people have spoken: they want the security of big gov't over trust in family. Families aren't perfect, people aren't perfect, but somehow the gov't is? We're trusting in an organization that takes hundreds of years to figure out slavery isn't okay. It's called bureaucracy, people, and there are so many levels of authority/chain of command that it is laughable how long anything takes to get assistance. People whine about the gov't's failure with Katrina, but we've spoken: we voted for more gov't assistance. This is beautiful to think of in the context of this being taxes day. Pay our bill to Uncle Sam for...better roads? ROTFL! I'll keep my money, thanks. The invisible hand (see Adam Smith) is infinitely better than what we have now. How can ANYONE vote for bigger gov't?
Zach | 1:14 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
This is horrible for the children. Absolutely horrible. I loathe lawyers, but we better see some huge lawsuits come out of this. Children being taken away from the security of their family that they've been immersed in for such a long time is more destructive than most realize. It can emotionally scar them for years, confuse them and can do no good--especially considering they have no clue why they're being separated.
GK from England | 1:15 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
There's something not quite right with this whole situation and I feel that the rights of the FLDS people have and are being violated. I do not know whether there has been any child abuse(as alledged from one source) and I as a Father would hope and pray that NO abuse has taken place. But to persecute a whole community of predominantly peace keeping people in this way is a backward step. Didn't the Nazi's do something similar to the Jews?
Amy | 1:19 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
This story has made me physically ill over the mistreatment of these women. Why are the women being punished? It is the men that are forcing the young girls to marry and such. As I have followed this story it has made me so depressed that something like this could happen in America.
candace from WA | 1:33 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
As a mother my heart is breaking for all the mothers that can't be with there children. I think this is getting out of control. If there are children that are 14 and 15 years old and are pregnant then we do have to realize that laws are being broken. It is disturbing and horrifying to watch unfold and my feelings are so mixed. There is no religious persecution going on here though. They are trying to protect a child from being abused they do it everyday. Its just on a different scale because there are so many children in this situation.
Exasperated | 1:34 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
" We are legal, law-abiding and a peaceful people. " she said. "We have literally been terrorized."
hereinlies the crux of the matter.They are so brainwashed, they genuinely believe they are law abiding citizens, but the evidence to date- upon which the state must make child welfare decisions- is that they have broken the law on three fronts at least- the worst of these being underage marriage and child abandonment of their young men. Mothers deserve their children back only when their children will be free from terror at home. The children here are the innocents who have been 'terrorised'.
Deseret Dawg | 2:03 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Texas has given America another black eye. First LBJ, then Dubya, now this. Texas is a reproach upon this great nation.
Worse | 2:08 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
I do not condone Polygamy but what was done by these authorities and HOW they did it was clearly wrong. There needs to be some accountability on this. These people (mothers and children) were not breaking the law, but the men were. This is one of the messy outcomes of Polygamy...how to end it (I understand better why the LDS church officially stopped it in 1890 but you can't break up families immediately.
The children are the consequences of this mess. Now they suffer from the law too. Who can guarantee their well-being is any better? Can you imagine having your 5 year old taken from you and an end of legal rights??
This is typical of many messes our gov't steps into - they do not think through all the implications of a decision.
Evan | 2:08 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Unbelieveable ! Same thing occured with the Nazi's and the Jews ! The Jews were lied too as well, have we learned nothing from the past !!!
This warped and twisted society called FLDS has been allowed to go on too long ! I agree with "Exasperated" they ARE NOT law-abiding citizens, they have been living in a bubble that is not reality ! Will be interesting to see how this mess ends up !
RE-Exasperated | 2:15 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Wrong. Remove your shoes when dealing with the souls of children: you're on holy ground. The innocent lives, the hopes and dreams of children are not to be crushed so that another group's perception of justice is to be realized. Truth takes time. Justice takes time. The greater good isn't about immediately changing something you feel is not right. Consider all aspects. If a person does not like Social Security, doesn't mean we pull the cord immediately on millions of lives. Millions of people on welfare that may not be worthy of their check still don't get thrown into the streets the instant the funding is cut. Not only will you have a riot on your hands, but you will actually have taken 3 steps backward. You have lost what little trust you had in the group you're trying to educate. It will take generations to heal.
Ask yourself the next time you're driving a few miles above the speed limit: if a society says it's okay or not okay, is it?
Assumptions make an... | 2:17 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Brainwashing says you, faith and belief says them. Marriage for underaged individuals is not always illegal. When the guardian gives consent, it is usually allowed. Maybe if you want to tell them how to raise their kids, you should be willing to offer up yours to them. It's a good thing that they are calmer about the government sanctioned kidnapping of their children than some would be. There would be no wall tall enough nor people thick enough to keep me from keeping my children away from a group that has proven itself to be untrustworthy and deceitful. And let me tell you, these people seem quite thick.
Eye Dee Ten Tee | 2:42 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
We're still waiting to find out who the 'judge' is that has issued these warrants. How did the baptist buses just happen to be there when the police and CPS stormed the ranch? Is there a reporter who is willing to investigate these questions? These poor people are just going to have their civil rights ignored until someone exposes the root of the problem.
The silence from the ACLU is deafening. There is no mention of this atrocity on their web site. They are too busy keeping bibles out of Texas schools and supporting same genger 'marriages' in Philadelphia. By their fruits you shall know them. They are only interested in defending civil liberties when it fits their agenda.
Archaea Cougarguard | 2:47 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
As difficult as this short term pain may be, it is a necessary task in order to stop the vicious and destructive cycle of polygamy. In the long term, it is in the best interest of these children to be taken out of the selfish and abusive FLDS environment. Better to keep focused on the long term and eventually redeeming objective.
Outsider | 2:54 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Only in your neck of the woods could these oddball losers get away with their histrionics.
Drama | 2:55 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
All I can say is that the Texas authorities better have some good hard evidence of 416 cases of abuse, or this is a terrible miscarriage of justice.
Personally, I would like to see a little more balanced reporting of these stories from DN. Lately, nearly everything I’ve read here has been nothing but major drama and tears from FLDS mothers making all sorts of accusations. What do people involved in Texas have to say? And what about the FLDS men, have they been struck dumb?
Anonymous | 3:09 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
How can you be unsure about if there was child abuse present on the compound? Children are forced to marry older men and produce bodies for spirit babies. That is sexual abuse. They are taught from the cradle that this is the right thing do to and to accept this sexual abuse. It's sick.
shocking | 3:33 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
What is shocking is the supportive comments towards women who have been perpetuating child rape.
Texas lied to you? Bit like the pot calling the kettle black. You have been lying about your names and refusing to identify your children.
Give me a break. You perpetuated a felony.
Utahn's; get over your outrage. Save your dismay for the real victims; the molested children of this cult. Those children are better off out of such a destructive home
also exasperated | 4:54 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Reading the story from the Deseret News' perspective, yes this is a horrible thing happening to these poor women. But that seems to be the view Deseret News wants you to have. I'm so tired of the Abusive Texan Authorities point of view. Does the FLDS own Deseret News?! In USA Today's story they tell that this was done for the children's safety (maybe to keep them from being forced into marriage with a 50 year old uncle you think?) and that some women "chose to return to their ranch and others accepted the state's offer of "a safe place" elsewhere" (that would be a women's shelter). Also, USA Today said that some of the children DO have lawyers. Funny how many things were in a paper outside of Utah that the newspaper in Utah just happened to miss. Yeah, I'm outside of Utah, too. Grew up there thought and I'm glad to see Texas doing what Utah never had the guts to do, step and and stop young girls forced into marriages they didn't want with men they didn't want.
Brian | 5:19 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Law abiding citizend who marry their 13 year olds to aunts and uncles? Must have missed that part of the statutory rape seminar...and what a job by the media to make us feel sorry for them forcing their kids into marriages as teenagers. Wow. From the Deseret News, not less. I'm very disappointed in everyone who is getting taken in by this.
just thinking | 5:35 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
each day the news gets worse. would someone stand up against these thugs. lets take the mothers to the right and the children to the left so they can have showers. that is what the nazis did to the jews. and now it is happening all over again. there have been a few convictions of child abuse. those men had trials and were proven guilty. go after the men. dont leave them on the ranch and take the children. dont lie to the mothers. we live in america, of course maybe this is all a lie. what freedoms do we really have? these same things happened to the main lds church in the last century, and now it is lifting its ugly head again. i pray each day that Christ will come again, and restore peace to this earth.
Uncle Fred | 5:44 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
"Anyone with a mother knows how we're feeling right now. What would they do if they were in our place? If we had known this was ahead of us, we couldn't have lived another day."
That is the real reason for the raid. Well, not really, it's the money, but, these people are just waiting for an order to drink the cool-aid. These mothers are trained to kill their children before letting the state take them. That is why the authorities did what they did in the manner in which they did it. This drivel is simply TV hype from the mothers. I blame the prosecutor(s) through the years from Utah and Arizona that let this mess get as far out of hand as it has.
JND | 5:59 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
The women repeatedly lied to CPS. And now they are surprised that CPS lied to them? I'm shocked!
Where's the proof? | 6:04 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
All this based on an anonymous phone call? Has anybody been formally charged with facilitating underage marriage or child abandonment? If they can do this to them they can do it to you. Better pray that someone doesn't trump up a charge against you. Your children may be the next wards of the state.
I do hope... | 6:09 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
that all things will sorted out fairly and promptly for the sake of the sanity of all parties involved, very soon...
FLUtahn | 6:14 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Wake up Americans! Our government has proven once again (ie Waco, Ruby Ridge) that it is more than willing to spit on the Constitution and then rub our faces in it. An overzealous and heavy-handed government can and must be met with ire from the people who GIVE IT its authority in the first place. I have seen far too much complacency amongst Americans in recent years. And, as punishment for that, our government has stealthily and surreptitiously removed some of our most time honored rights...such as: Due Process, Habeas Corpus, and fair treatment. I wonder which reasons they will use to remove children next in order to "protect" them? Maybe your political positions are "odd" or "not normal" or maybe you just dont like the government, so one day a government trooper shows up at your door to "protect" your children. Think about it...this is just the beginning.
Georgia | 6:23 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Exasperated,
There has only been an accusation of broken law - no evidence so far has been produced since they cannot even locate the girl who made the initial phone call. Without evidence, arrests cannot be made and (in theory)children cannot be removed from parents custody. What concerns me is the idea that someone can make a phone call to authorities accusing someone/some group of illegal actions and without evidence that person/group can suffer harsh consequences! I would not be surprised if a law (or many laws) were broken, but as a citizen of the United States I expect and have the right to demand that lawful and legal procedures are followed! These children have been taken into custody not on the grounds of EVIDENCE, but instead they have been taken in order to COLLECT evidence! Completely backwards and in full disregard for due process! If this case stirs your emotions and sense of justice, then you should write to your congressmen/women and express your concern over Texas officials disregard for the legal rights of these parents. I don't agree with their lifestyle, but standing up for their rights is standing up for my own!
Candace is next | 6:23 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Candace from WA,
How would you like being the next mother to have your children "protected"?
Difficult thing | 6:24 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
I have been a foster parent. I have witnessed a mother working very hard and did get her child back by doing what the CPS plan laid out for her to do. I have seen a teen mother run and dissappear for months at a time only to return and demand visits and she got them. Supervised yes, but from the 4+ years I worked with CPS and the foster care system their main priority is to RETURN CHILDREN TO THEIR FAMILIES. They are duty bound by that, and what some of you don't understand is that we aren't getting all the information here. We are not suppose to. Some information is very guarded due to protection of rights and confidentiality of these children. Please don't thnk we have all the information CPS and officials have. There is much we don't know and know that media is hindering and making this much worse for everyone involved.
Nope | 6:28 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
No sympathy. If you are an enabler to hurting any child.
CITIZEN | 6:37 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Texas authorities lie to someone????NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!
Wise Man vs Foolish Man | 6:40 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Now will you people accepting this outrageous raid by the government wake up? How can you continue to support a raid which was brought about by an unsubstantiated phone call and a late night phone call to a judge?
The germans were tricked in this same exact manner. Their government told them the jews were to blame for their financial troubles, "look the jews are getting richer while you suffer." So they praised the nazis for "teaching those jews a lesson." Likewise, people are tricked into thinking they are in the moral right, because after all these people are child molesters, aren't they?
Whether they be or not, we are a nation of laws and despite what you may think the government must also follow them. Innocent until proven guilty is a foundational element of our legal system. A foundation build upon a rock. A foolish man would support this house upon the sand in which you support CPS operating on.
The question to you is which on are you? Foolish or Wise?
VegasBaby | 6:40 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
And just how many FLDS members have lied to the authorities? Can't wait to see what happens Thursday.
Anonymous | 6:47 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
The government is simply following protocol. If there is a hint of abuse on a child then that child becomes a ward of the state until the false accusations are proven otherwise. My friend had a neighbor turn her in to social workers because they saw one of her children on a garage roof. She still gets weekly visits from the state to see if any danger activity can be seen, and still threaten to take away her children if deemed necessary. If nothing here is amiss then these children will be returned. But laws are put into place, this is just a big scale operation and only noteworthy to journalists for the shock value...which seems to have worked on you people!
Mike | 6:47 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Where were these "crying" mothers when their 14 year old daughters were being married off? Were their any tears for them? Where were the "crying" mothers when their 15 year old sons were run off the compound because they were competition to the old geezers? For some reason there were no tears or complaints for those children instead abandoning them to a completely unknown life and world.
Last night I watched an interview and it was clear, you need only do the math, that one mother was clearly "lying for the lord." She was asked the ages of her children and grandchild...her child that produced the grandchild was told to be "18 plus." Her grandchild was 10 months. If one adds 10 months plus the 9 months of gestation we have a 16 year old that was pregnant. Carolyn Jessop then spoke. She shared a husband with this same woman and she also stated that the girl had just turned 18.
Folks, this is not about polygamy but about abuse and CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE. It is often also INCESTUOUS CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE (see fumerase deficiency). Your hearts are bleeding as they lie through their teeth.
john | 6:49 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
This raid should frighten anyone who is a member of an unpopular religion.
Wayne | 6:54 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
The current situation in Texas of the state kidnapping hundreds of children from their mothers is a breach of constitutional rights of due process. This is outrageous!
The immediate solution to all the chaos as to where to care for these children who are being torn-apart from their mothers is quite simple. Have all the adult males leave the compound (which they have agreed to do) and allow all children and mothers to return to their homes. Mothers and children can then be monitored within the compound by CPS and other appropriate personnel. The mothers and children can then be in their own homes while the state figures out what to do about this mess.
wbm5 | 6:54 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Here is a statement from one of the mothers. "I tried so hard to protect my children. They don't know that people hurt each other." This scares me..... She isn't preparing her children for the world we live in. I have to wonder what has happened in her life that she feels such a need to hide from the truth.
I protect my children by giving them tools to function with many types of people. They learn to get along with others, not act as if everyone is out to get them.
I am torn though to on the way things seem to be presented to us. A bunch of crying women saying they were lied to sure makes you want to feel bad for them. But the police didn't lie to get then away from their children. Those women wouldn't have left calmly if the police had said, "We are now going to separate you from your children." They were told we want to give you information, which they did. These women feel like victims and they are.... from their leaders and their "husbands" who supposedly "love" them.
Kevin In Texas | 6:57 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Prosecute those who are law breakers, perhaps the leaders of this group. But for heavens sake I do not believe that the accusations merit the removal of all children from all mothers. This is an outrage and I will definitely cast my votes this election season against those who are responsible.
Mother From Australia | 6:59 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
If there is an investigation needed, I can't imagine a more abusive and traumatic way to conduct it! Why do the authorities have the right to lie to the children and the mothers? What is next for these children? I have heard of underage children being badgered by interrogators until they have confessed to awful crimes. Who is tending to their needs? Why do they want them separated? If the women and children are victims, why do the authorities further punish them? This saga is nothing short of horrific. We should all be worried that this could happen in a "free" nation like the USA. You had all better fear this kind of power unleashed!!
The Australian government just apologized to the Aboriginal people for stealing and keeping their children over a period of 40 years or so. They are called the The Stolen Generation. What a tragedy!!
re: also exasperated | 7:01 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
You lied about the USA Today story, I just read the whole thing and watched their video clips. They are very similar to the ones the Deseret News is covering. Their story is nearly identical. Considering you are a liar, I would expect you to support the wrong course of action.
Perhaps you should look into a mirror before you call someone else a liar especially an entire news outlet. There were times where I swore off ever reading the Deseret News again because they had abandoned their base audience, Mormon families. But recently Joe Cannon has righted that ship, hopefully things will stay that way. For you to criticize them for being the first and at that time the only media outlet presenting both sides of this story is appalling. Perhaps you would be better off in China where you aren't presented with the facts so the government can tell you how you should think for you.
DeLaval Milker | 7:08 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Go Texas. Pedophiles don't usually get a soft reception in Utah, but when it's this bunch it seems to be a different story.
Rescuing these people, and putting an end to the abuse is going to take time and effort, the kind Utah won't step up with.
To me, one of the biggest crimes committed against these people, all of them, is the loss of themselves. They have had their self determination stripped away, and replaced with 'faith'. Forced to have procreative sex at very young ages, pooly educated, isolated and taught to fear society, it's not like their career options open up for them. Coming from this environment, I'm not surprised that they are going to consider anything in the outside world a lie.
Sad in St George | 7:09 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
I have provided medical care to many of these people for the past 10 years. They are some of the most honest, decent people I have ever met. They abuse their children at the same rate as the general population--not anywhere near 100 percent as Texas would have us believe.
I did my medical training in the inner city hospitals of St Louis. On any given day, they are full of 12-13 year old mothers having children--young mothers who truly are abused by violent drug culture. If the authorities rounded up all the kids at risk in St Louis and stole them from their families, there would be war.
Texas has perpetrated the very type of crime against our citizens that our constitution was designed to prevent.
Liz | 7:11 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
In child abuse cases, it is really common to separate parents from kids. Texas is doing it correctly. The kids won't speak if they have their mother there, who is using a cell phone to get calls from the guys back at the ranch. Let's wait for more to come out. If the women were really concerned, they wouldn't watch their 14 year old marry a 50 year old.
wrc | 7:16 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Many comments here are based upon stereotype opinions, not fact. And the same logic seems to be used by the State of Texas. A report of a crime (child rape in this case) should have been investigated and, if possible, prosecuted. Authorities should have gone to the ranch to investigate - But the REPORTED abuse of one girl is not legal cause to take into legal custody several hundred people.
This is a country of Constitutional law and all people have rights. There has been no due process here. This is totalitarian rule based upon stereotypical opinions.
I agree with 'Georgia' who wrote; "as a citizen of the United States I expect and have the right to demand that lawful and legal procedures are followed!"
Anna | 7:18 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Sickening is the only way to describe these human rights violations by the Texan authorities! Didn't we just see this kind of dishonesty, fraud, and deceit in the Duke University rape case. Justice needs to be served here! These children must be returned to their families immediately, their families compensated by the State, and criminal charges brought against the rogue prosecutors and those in Child Protective Services that have greatly overstepped their authority.
I agree | 7:20 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Hear,hear - Mike, Schocking, & Also exasperated. You said it better than I could. Shame on DN for helping this turn into another Short Creek where everyone feels so sorry for these poor, persecuted, law-abiding, polygamists.
Is there no other way? | 7:22 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
This seems so wrong on so many levels.
Could officials not just ARRANGE an official MEETING with all adult male leaders of the sect (whoever their leadership body or quarom or whatever consists of) and make the agreement that the law will stay out of their lives if they agree to not allow women to marry until they are 18 years old (which is still pretty darn young in my book). That way the FLDS would feel assurance that this won't happen again, and the state would be assured child-bride (abuse) isn't happening anymore.
These poor children. I would gladly step in as a foster parent AND ALLOW THEIR MOTHER (birth mother as proved by birth certificate)to come live with them all in my home. I don't think this is right how it is being handled.
Layola | 7:28 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Who new the deseret News was so pro polygamy?
My first reaction was sadness for these women then I remembered what they would do to their own daughters once they were 13 or 14.
Sorry ladies, if you can't take your own daughters away from men who will rape them at such a young age, you deserve to lose them to the state.
Make a choice.
Once again I ask, where are the men?
Why are they not speaking out?
Some of these women were on TV last night. One was the woman who tried to stop Carolyn Jessop from fleeing with her children. She did her cause no good.
They are so willing to turn on the waterworks for the cameras but refuse to answer some very pertinent questions. Sorry ladies, the rights of your children come before yours. Their first right is to not be in an environment that condones rape.
Bill O'Reilly reported that there are about 20 girls ages 13-16 that are pregnant among the children.
Well ladies, you let those rapes happen! Now the system is getting you.
Too bad.
Thomas Jefferson | 7:28 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Here we sit and allow a massive intrusion and display of State authority in an unprecedented way. Texas has no choice but to make it up as they go because there is nothing codified that explains or gives guidance in what they are doing. I am totally against what has occured in Texas and this over-reach will inspire States and Federal agencies more intrusion than ever.
Inspired | 7:31 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
After watching these pitiful turn of events, I'm even more convinced that the "Manifesto" to end plural marriage back in 1890 was even more Inspired. The Lord knows why he does things, hundreds of years in advance.
Texas authorities executed a carefully orchestrated plan to force dozens of Fundamentalist LDS Church mothers into leaving their children behind in state care, said women who spoke to reporters at the YFZ Ranch Monday night.
10:27 a.m. |
Some of the FLDS mothers who were sent home without their children console one another at the Yearning for Zion ranch near Eldorado, Texas.
David | 1:10 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
This is outrageous beyond belief. I'm thinking of my numerous nephews and nieces, particularly ages 6 and under...I can't imagine them being away from their parents for a night, let alone a couple weeks/months. The people have spoken: they want the security of big gov't over trust in family. Families aren't perfect, people aren't perfect, but somehow the gov't is? We're trusting in an organization that takes hundreds of years to figure out slavery isn't okay. It's called bureaucracy, people, and there are so many levels of authority/chain of command that it is laughable how long anything takes to get assistance. People whine about the gov't's failure with Katrina, but we've spoken: we voted for more gov't assistance. This is beautiful to think of in the context of this being taxes day. Pay our bill to Uncle Sam for...better roads? ROTFL! I'll keep my money, thanks. The invisible hand (see Adam Smith) is infinitely better than what we have now. How can ANYONE vote for bigger gov't?
Zach | 1:14 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
This is horrible for the children. Absolutely horrible. I loathe lawyers, but we better see some huge lawsuits come out of this. Children being taken away from the security of their family that they've been immersed in for such a long time is more destructive than most realize. It can emotionally scar them for years, confuse them and can do no good--especially considering they have no clue why they're being separated.
GK from England | 1:15 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
There's something not quite right with this whole situation and I feel that the rights of the FLDS people have and are being violated. I do not know whether there has been any child abuse(as alledged from one source) and I as a Father would hope and pray that NO abuse has taken place. But to persecute a whole community of predominantly peace keeping people in this way is a backward step. Didn't the Nazi's do something similar to the Jews?
Amy | 1:19 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
This story has made me physically ill over the mistreatment of these women. Why are the women being punished? It is the men that are forcing the young girls to marry and such. As I have followed this story it has made me so depressed that something like this could happen in America.
candace from WA | 1:33 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
As a mother my heart is breaking for all the mothers that can't be with there children. I think this is getting out of control. If there are children that are 14 and 15 years old and are pregnant then we do have to realize that laws are being broken. It is disturbing and horrifying to watch unfold and my feelings are so mixed. There is no religious persecution going on here though. They are trying to protect a child from being abused they do it everyday. Its just on a different scale because there are so many children in this situation.
Exasperated | 1:34 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
" We are legal, law-abiding and a peaceful people. " she said. "We have literally been terrorized."
hereinlies the crux of the matter.They are so brainwashed, they genuinely believe they are law abiding citizens, but the evidence to date- upon which the state must make child welfare decisions- is that they have broken the law on three fronts at least- the worst of these being underage marriage and child abandonment of their young men. Mothers deserve their children back only when their children will be free from terror at home. The children here are the innocents who have been 'terrorised'.
Deseret Dawg | 2:03 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Texas has given America another black eye. First LBJ, then Dubya, now this. Texas is a reproach upon this great nation.
Worse | 2:08 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
I do not condone Polygamy but what was done by these authorities and HOW they did it was clearly wrong. There needs to be some accountability on this. These people (mothers and children) were not breaking the law, but the men were. This is one of the messy outcomes of Polygamy...how to end it (I understand better why the LDS church officially stopped it in 1890 but you can't break up families immediately.
The children are the consequences of this mess. Now they suffer from the law too. Who can guarantee their well-being is any better? Can you imagine having your 5 year old taken from you and an end of legal rights??
This is typical of many messes our gov't steps into - they do not think through all the implications of a decision.
Evan | 2:08 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Unbelieveable ! Same thing occured with the Nazi's and the Jews ! The Jews were lied too as well, have we learned nothing from the past !!!
This warped and twisted society called FLDS has been allowed to go on too long ! I agree with "Exasperated" they ARE NOT law-abiding citizens, they have been living in a bubble that is not reality ! Will be interesting to see how this mess ends up !
RE-Exasperated | 2:15 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Wrong. Remove your shoes when dealing with the souls of children: you're on holy ground. The innocent lives, the hopes and dreams of children are not to be crushed so that another group's perception of justice is to be realized. Truth takes time. Justice takes time. The greater good isn't about immediately changing something you feel is not right. Consider all aspects. If a person does not like Social Security, doesn't mean we pull the cord immediately on millions of lives. Millions of people on welfare that may not be worthy of their check still don't get thrown into the streets the instant the funding is cut. Not only will you have a riot on your hands, but you will actually have taken 3 steps backward. You have lost what little trust you had in the group you're trying to educate. It will take generations to heal.
Ask yourself the next time you're driving a few miles above the speed limit: if a society says it's okay or not okay, is it?
Assumptions make an... | 2:17 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Brainwashing says you, faith and belief says them. Marriage for underaged individuals is not always illegal. When the guardian gives consent, it is usually allowed. Maybe if you want to tell them how to raise their kids, you should be willing to offer up yours to them. It's a good thing that they are calmer about the government sanctioned kidnapping of their children than some would be. There would be no wall tall enough nor people thick enough to keep me from keeping my children away from a group that has proven itself to be untrustworthy and deceitful. And let me tell you, these people seem quite thick.
Eye Dee Ten Tee | 2:42 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
We're still waiting to find out who the 'judge' is that has issued these warrants. How did the baptist buses just happen to be there when the police and CPS stormed the ranch? Is there a reporter who is willing to investigate these questions? These poor people are just going to have their civil rights ignored until someone exposes the root of the problem.
The silence from the ACLU is deafening. There is no mention of this atrocity on their web site. They are too busy keeping bibles out of Texas schools and supporting same genger 'marriages' in Philadelphia. By their fruits you shall know them. They are only interested in defending civil liberties when it fits their agenda.
Archaea Cougarguard | 2:47 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
As difficult as this short term pain may be, it is a necessary task in order to stop the vicious and destructive cycle of polygamy. In the long term, it is in the best interest of these children to be taken out of the selfish and abusive FLDS environment. Better to keep focused on the long term and eventually redeeming objective.
Outsider | 2:54 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Only in your neck of the woods could these oddball losers get away with their histrionics.
Drama | 2:55 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
All I can say is that the Texas authorities better have some good hard evidence of 416 cases of abuse, or this is a terrible miscarriage of justice.
Personally, I would like to see a little more balanced reporting of these stories from DN. Lately, nearly everything I’ve read here has been nothing but major drama and tears from FLDS mothers making all sorts of accusations. What do people involved in Texas have to say? And what about the FLDS men, have they been struck dumb?
Anonymous | 3:09 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
How can you be unsure about if there was child abuse present on the compound? Children are forced to marry older men and produce bodies for spirit babies. That is sexual abuse. They are taught from the cradle that this is the right thing do to and to accept this sexual abuse. It's sick.
shocking | 3:33 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
What is shocking is the supportive comments towards women who have been perpetuating child rape.
Texas lied to you? Bit like the pot calling the kettle black. You have been lying about your names and refusing to identify your children.
Give me a break. You perpetuated a felony.
Utahn's; get over your outrage. Save your dismay for the real victims; the molested children of this cult. Those children are better off out of such a destructive home
also exasperated | 4:54 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Reading the story from the Deseret News' perspective, yes this is a horrible thing happening to these poor women. But that seems to be the view Deseret News wants you to have. I'm so tired of the Abusive Texan Authorities point of view. Does the FLDS own Deseret News?! In USA Today's story they tell that this was done for the children's safety (maybe to keep them from being forced into marriage with a 50 year old uncle you think?) and that some women "chose to return to their ranch and others accepted the state's offer of "a safe place" elsewhere" (that would be a women's shelter). Also, USA Today said that some of the children DO have lawyers. Funny how many things were in a paper outside of Utah that the newspaper in Utah just happened to miss. Yeah, I'm outside of Utah, too. Grew up there thought and I'm glad to see Texas doing what Utah never had the guts to do, step and and stop young girls forced into marriages they didn't want with men they didn't want.
Brian | 5:19 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Law abiding citizend who marry their 13 year olds to aunts and uncles? Must have missed that part of the statutory rape seminar...and what a job by the media to make us feel sorry for them forcing their kids into marriages as teenagers. Wow. From the Deseret News, not less. I'm very disappointed in everyone who is getting taken in by this.
just thinking | 5:35 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
each day the news gets worse. would someone stand up against these thugs. lets take the mothers to the right and the children to the left so they can have showers. that is what the nazis did to the jews. and now it is happening all over again. there have been a few convictions of child abuse. those men had trials and were proven guilty. go after the men. dont leave them on the ranch and take the children. dont lie to the mothers. we live in america, of course maybe this is all a lie. what freedoms do we really have? these same things happened to the main lds church in the last century, and now it is lifting its ugly head again. i pray each day that Christ will come again, and restore peace to this earth.
Uncle Fred | 5:44 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
"Anyone with a mother knows how we're feeling right now. What would they do if they were in our place? If we had known this was ahead of us, we couldn't have lived another day."
That is the real reason for the raid. Well, not really, it's the money, but, these people are just waiting for an order to drink the cool-aid. These mothers are trained to kill their children before letting the state take them. That is why the authorities did what they did in the manner in which they did it. This drivel is simply TV hype from the mothers. I blame the prosecutor(s) through the years from Utah and Arizona that let this mess get as far out of hand as it has.
JND | 5:59 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
The women repeatedly lied to CPS. And now they are surprised that CPS lied to them? I'm shocked!
Where's the proof? | 6:04 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
All this based on an anonymous phone call? Has anybody been formally charged with facilitating underage marriage or child abandonment? If they can do this to them they can do it to you. Better pray that someone doesn't trump up a charge against you. Your children may be the next wards of the state.
I do hope... | 6:09 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
that all things will sorted out fairly and promptly for the sake of the sanity of all parties involved, very soon...
FLUtahn | 6:14 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Wake up Americans! Our government has proven once again (ie Waco, Ruby Ridge) that it is more than willing to spit on the Constitution and then rub our faces in it. An overzealous and heavy-handed government can and must be met with ire from the people who GIVE IT its authority in the first place. I have seen far too much complacency amongst Americans in recent years. And, as punishment for that, our government has stealthily and surreptitiously removed some of our most time honored rights...such as: Due Process, Habeas Corpus, and fair treatment. I wonder which reasons they will use to remove children next in order to "protect" them? Maybe your political positions are "odd" or "not normal" or maybe you just dont like the government, so one day a government trooper shows up at your door to "protect" your children. Think about it...this is just the beginning.
Georgia | 6:23 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Exasperated,
There has only been an accusation of broken law - no evidence so far has been produced since they cannot even locate the girl who made the initial phone call. Without evidence, arrests cannot be made and (in theory)children cannot be removed from parents custody. What concerns me is the idea that someone can make a phone call to authorities accusing someone/some group of illegal actions and without evidence that person/group can suffer harsh consequences! I would not be surprised if a law (or many laws) were broken, but as a citizen of the United States I expect and have the right to demand that lawful and legal procedures are followed! These children have been taken into custody not on the grounds of EVIDENCE, but instead they have been taken in order to COLLECT evidence! Completely backwards and in full disregard for due process! If this case stirs your emotions and sense of justice, then you should write to your congressmen/women and express your concern over Texas officials disregard for the legal rights of these parents. I don't agree with their lifestyle, but standing up for their rights is standing up for my own!
Candace is next | 6:23 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Candace from WA,
How would you like being the next mother to have your children "protected"?
Difficult thing | 6:24 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
I have been a foster parent. I have witnessed a mother working very hard and did get her child back by doing what the CPS plan laid out for her to do. I have seen a teen mother run and dissappear for months at a time only to return and demand visits and she got them. Supervised yes, but from the 4+ years I worked with CPS and the foster care system their main priority is to RETURN CHILDREN TO THEIR FAMILIES. They are duty bound by that, and what some of you don't understand is that we aren't getting all the information here. We are not suppose to. Some information is very guarded due to protection of rights and confidentiality of these children. Please don't thnk we have all the information CPS and officials have. There is much we don't know and know that media is hindering and making this much worse for everyone involved.
Nope | 6:28 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
No sympathy. If you are an enabler to hurting any child.
CITIZEN | 6:37 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Texas authorities lie to someone????NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!
Wise Man vs Foolish Man | 6:40 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Now will you people accepting this outrageous raid by the government wake up? How can you continue to support a raid which was brought about by an unsubstantiated phone call and a late night phone call to a judge?
The germans were tricked in this same exact manner. Their government told them the jews were to blame for their financial troubles, "look the jews are getting richer while you suffer." So they praised the nazis for "teaching those jews a lesson." Likewise, people are tricked into thinking they are in the moral right, because after all these people are child molesters, aren't they?
Whether they be or not, we are a nation of laws and despite what you may think the government must also follow them. Innocent until proven guilty is a foundational element of our legal system. A foundation build upon a rock. A foolish man would support this house upon the sand in which you support CPS operating on.
The question to you is which on are you? Foolish or Wise?
VegasBaby | 6:40 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
And just how many FLDS members have lied to the authorities? Can't wait to see what happens Thursday.
Anonymous | 6:47 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
The government is simply following protocol. If there is a hint of abuse on a child then that child becomes a ward of the state until the false accusations are proven otherwise. My friend had a neighbor turn her in to social workers because they saw one of her children on a garage roof. She still gets weekly visits from the state to see if any danger activity can be seen, and still threaten to take away her children if deemed necessary. If nothing here is amiss then these children will be returned. But laws are put into place, this is just a big scale operation and only noteworthy to journalists for the shock value...which seems to have worked on you people!
Mike | 6:47 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Where were these "crying" mothers when their 14 year old daughters were being married off? Were their any tears for them? Where were the "crying" mothers when their 15 year old sons were run off the compound because they were competition to the old geezers? For some reason there were no tears or complaints for those children instead abandoning them to a completely unknown life and world.
Last night I watched an interview and it was clear, you need only do the math, that one mother was clearly "lying for the lord." She was asked the ages of her children and grandchild...her child that produced the grandchild was told to be "18 plus." Her grandchild was 10 months. If one adds 10 months plus the 9 months of gestation we have a 16 year old that was pregnant. Carolyn Jessop then spoke. She shared a husband with this same woman and she also stated that the girl had just turned 18.
Folks, this is not about polygamy but about abuse and CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE. It is often also INCESTUOUS CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE (see fumerase deficiency). Your hearts are bleeding as they lie through their teeth.
john | 6:49 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
This raid should frighten anyone who is a member of an unpopular religion.
Wayne | 6:54 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
The current situation in Texas of the state kidnapping hundreds of children from their mothers is a breach of constitutional rights of due process. This is outrageous!
The immediate solution to all the chaos as to where to care for these children who are being torn-apart from their mothers is quite simple. Have all the adult males leave the compound (which they have agreed to do) and allow all children and mothers to return to their homes. Mothers and children can then be monitored within the compound by CPS and other appropriate personnel. The mothers and children can then be in their own homes while the state figures out what to do about this mess.
wbm5 | 6:54 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Here is a statement from one of the mothers. "I tried so hard to protect my children. They don't know that people hurt each other." This scares me..... She isn't preparing her children for the world we live in. I have to wonder what has happened in her life that she feels such a need to hide from the truth.
I protect my children by giving them tools to function with many types of people. They learn to get along with others, not act as if everyone is out to get them.
I am torn though to on the way things seem to be presented to us. A bunch of crying women saying they were lied to sure makes you want to feel bad for them. But the police didn't lie to get then away from their children. Those women wouldn't have left calmly if the police had said, "We are now going to separate you from your children." They were told we want to give you information, which they did. These women feel like victims and they are.... from their leaders and their "husbands" who supposedly "love" them.
Kevin In Texas | 6:57 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Prosecute those who are law breakers, perhaps the leaders of this group. But for heavens sake I do not believe that the accusations merit the removal of all children from all mothers. This is an outrage and I will definitely cast my votes this election season against those who are responsible.
Mother From Australia | 6:59 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
If there is an investigation needed, I can't imagine a more abusive and traumatic way to conduct it! Why do the authorities have the right to lie to the children and the mothers? What is next for these children? I have heard of underage children being badgered by interrogators until they have confessed to awful crimes. Who is tending to their needs? Why do they want them separated? If the women and children are victims, why do the authorities further punish them? This saga is nothing short of horrific. We should all be worried that this could happen in a "free" nation like the USA. You had all better fear this kind of power unleashed!!
The Australian government just apologized to the Aboriginal people for stealing and keeping their children over a period of 40 years or so. They are called the The Stolen Generation. What a tragedy!!
re: also exasperated | 7:01 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
You lied about the USA Today story, I just read the whole thing and watched their video clips. They are very similar to the ones the Deseret News is covering. Their story is nearly identical. Considering you are a liar, I would expect you to support the wrong course of action.
Perhaps you should look into a mirror before you call someone else a liar especially an entire news outlet. There were times where I swore off ever reading the Deseret News again because they had abandoned their base audience, Mormon families. But recently Joe Cannon has righted that ship, hopefully things will stay that way. For you to criticize them for being the first and at that time the only media outlet presenting both sides of this story is appalling. Perhaps you would be better off in China where you aren't presented with the facts so the government can tell you how you should think for you.
DeLaval Milker | 7:08 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Go Texas. Pedophiles don't usually get a soft reception in Utah, but when it's this bunch it seems to be a different story.
Rescuing these people, and putting an end to the abuse is going to take time and effort, the kind Utah won't step up with.
To me, one of the biggest crimes committed against these people, all of them, is the loss of themselves. They have had their self determination stripped away, and replaced with 'faith'. Forced to have procreative sex at very young ages, pooly educated, isolated and taught to fear society, it's not like their career options open up for them. Coming from this environment, I'm not surprised that they are going to consider anything in the outside world a lie.
Sad in St George | 7:09 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
I have provided medical care to many of these people for the past 10 years. They are some of the most honest, decent people I have ever met. They abuse their children at the same rate as the general population--not anywhere near 100 percent as Texas would have us believe.
I did my medical training in the inner city hospitals of St Louis. On any given day, they are full of 12-13 year old mothers having children--young mothers who truly are abused by violent drug culture. If the authorities rounded up all the kids at risk in St Louis and stole them from their families, there would be war.
Texas has perpetrated the very type of crime against our citizens that our constitution was designed to prevent.
Liz | 7:11 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
In child abuse cases, it is really common to separate parents from kids. Texas is doing it correctly. The kids won't speak if they have their mother there, who is using a cell phone to get calls from the guys back at the ranch. Let's wait for more to come out. If the women were really concerned, they wouldn't watch their 14 year old marry a 50 year old.
wrc | 7:16 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Many comments here are based upon stereotype opinions, not fact. And the same logic seems to be used by the State of Texas. A report of a crime (child rape in this case) should have been investigated and, if possible, prosecuted. Authorities should have gone to the ranch to investigate - But the REPORTED abuse of one girl is not legal cause to take into legal custody several hundred people.
This is a country of Constitutional law and all people have rights. There has been no due process here. This is totalitarian rule based upon stereotypical opinions.
I agree with 'Georgia' who wrote; "as a citizen of the United States I expect and have the right to demand that lawful and legal procedures are followed!"
Anna | 7:18 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Sickening is the only way to describe these human rights violations by the Texan authorities! Didn't we just see this kind of dishonesty, fraud, and deceit in the Duke University rape case. Justice needs to be served here! These children must be returned to their families immediately, their families compensated by the State, and criminal charges brought against the rogue prosecutors and those in Child Protective Services that have greatly overstepped their authority.
I agree | 7:20 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Hear,hear - Mike, Schocking, & Also exasperated. You said it better than I could. Shame on DN for helping this turn into another Short Creek where everyone feels so sorry for these poor, persecuted, law-abiding, polygamists.
Is there no other way? | 7:22 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
This seems so wrong on so many levels.
Could officials not just ARRANGE an official MEETING with all adult male leaders of the sect (whoever their leadership body or quarom or whatever consists of) and make the agreement that the law will stay out of their lives if they agree to not allow women to marry until they are 18 years old (which is still pretty darn young in my book). That way the FLDS would feel assurance that this won't happen again, and the state would be assured child-bride (abuse) isn't happening anymore.
These poor children. I would gladly step in as a foster parent AND ALLOW THEIR MOTHER (birth mother as proved by birth certificate)to come live with them all in my home. I don't think this is right how it is being handled.
Layola | 7:28 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Who new the deseret News was so pro polygamy?
My first reaction was sadness for these women then I remembered what they would do to their own daughters once they were 13 or 14.
Sorry ladies, if you can't take your own daughters away from men who will rape them at such a young age, you deserve to lose them to the state.
Make a choice.
Once again I ask, where are the men?
Why are they not speaking out?
Some of these women were on TV last night. One was the woman who tried to stop Carolyn Jessop from fleeing with her children. She did her cause no good.
They are so willing to turn on the waterworks for the cameras but refuse to answer some very pertinent questions. Sorry ladies, the rights of your children come before yours. Their first right is to not be in an environment that condones rape.
Bill O'Reilly reported that there are about 20 girls ages 13-16 that are pregnant among the children.
Well ladies, you let those rapes happen! Now the system is getting you.
Too bad.
Thomas Jefferson | 7:28 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
Here we sit and allow a massive intrusion and display of State authority in an unprecedented way. Texas has no choice but to make it up as they go because there is nothing codified that explains or gives guidance in what they are doing. I am totally against what has occured in Texas and this over-reach will inspire States and Federal agencies more intrusion than ever.
Inspired | 7:31 a.m. Apr. 15, 2008
After watching these pitiful turn of events, I'm even more convinced that the "Manifesto" to end plural marriage back in 1890 was even more Inspired. The Lord knows why he does things, hundreds of years in advance.
Can You Spell - WACO or ELDORADO
By Kenneth Howard Smith
DENVER, CO(IFS)- I don't condone any of this. But what I condone is justice and the right to choose. Let's see, in Waco, TX, the children were being starved to death, there wasn't enough food, according to Janet Reno and her young guns. Today, it's Eldorado, TX. The excuse this time, is a 16 year old girl that's called "twice", but can't be found? This case really stinks -- really bad?
After watching the "6 O'Clock" News, again I was brainwashed by the media that happens to report on the same thing at the very same time. How do they know? Sandra C. Joseph would ask. Well Sandra, it's like this, I have been expecting the State of Texas to have flown this "16 year old" girl into the state. You know, an actress to play the part, but can never get any credit. It's about the same change that Mr. Bush has had to fly into Iraq those WMD's - on a C-130. It's only a matter of time that this "girl' that was used to ignite this powder dump will come forth - even if you have to invent her.
==============================================
'Busload' Of Children Removed From Polygamist Compound After Sex Abuse Report
==============================================
Written by: Doug G. Ware
Email: dware@kutv2.com
Last Update: 4/04 3:45 pm
Print Story | Email Story
Polygamous Compound 'Raided' By Authorities
Members of the Texas Rangers law enforcement agency arrive at a polygamous compound in Texas used by the FLDS church. April 4, 2008.
Members of the Texas Rangers law enforcement agency arrive at a polygamous compound in Texas used by the FLDS church. April 4, 2008.
EL DORADO, Tex. - Texas authorities removed several children on Friday from a polygamous compound that was essentially built by Warren Jeffs -- after raiding the large building with search warrants in-hand.
Local police, along with Texas State troopers and the Texas Rangers sealed off the compound on Thursday night -- after receiving a complaint from a runaway that children inside were being sexually abused. Officials did not let anyone go in or out, and didn't even let airplanes or helicopters fly overhead.
Friday afternoon, Texas state troopers escorted a bus from the compound which contained several children -- but mostly girls, state child welfare officials said. Officials did not immediately say whether the children taken away had been abused.
The compound was purchased by Jeffs' Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (FLDS) four years ago as a retreat for followers of the faith. It is said that Jeffs himself even spent some time at the compound in the past.
The compound, called the "Yearning For Zion Ranch," has approximately 150 people living inside -- all of whom presumably are believers in the FLDS faith. It is located approximately 150 miles northwest of San Antonio.
Jeffs, who was arrested in August 2007 on child rape-related charges, was once -- and might still be -- considered the FLDS church's prophet.
The "Yearning For Zion" ranch is a retreat for followers of the FLDS faith located in El Dorado, Tex. (Photo: Randy Mankin/Eldorado Success)
The "Yearning For Zion" ranch is a retreat for followers of the FLDS faith located in El Dorado, Tex. (Photo: Randy Mankin/Eldorado Success)
Jeffs was captured near Las Vegas, Nev. in 2007 traveling in an SUV allegedly loaded with electronic equipment, disguises and thousands of dollars in cash. He had been wanted for years by local and federal authorities for allegedly arranging the marriages of young girls to older men.
In November 2007, Jeffs was sentenced to two five years-to-life prison sentences, which will be served consecutively. He still faces similar charges in Arizona.
On Friday, authorities said that everyone inside the compound was cooperating and that no one had been placed under arrest. It was not revealed how many people inside were being questioned or investigated, or how long the investigation would last.
Friday's news of the raid invoked memories of a similar incident in 1993, when FBI agents -- acting on reports of child abuse inside a different religious retreat in Waco, Texas -- forced their way into the Branch Davidian compound, which resulted in a massive fire and nearly 100 deaths.
To this day, it is not clear whether the fire was started by the people inside -- or accidentally by the FBI. David Koresh, the cult's proclaimed leader, was among those who died in the incident.
DENVER, CO(IFS)- I don't condone any of this. But what I condone is justice and the right to choose. Let's see, in Waco, TX, the children were being starved to death, there wasn't enough food, according to Janet Reno and her young guns. Today, it's Eldorado, TX. The excuse this time, is a 16 year old girl that's called "twice", but can't be found? This case really stinks -- really bad?
After watching the "6 O'Clock" News, again I was brainwashed by the media that happens to report on the same thing at the very same time. How do they know? Sandra C. Joseph would ask. Well Sandra, it's like this, I have been expecting the State of Texas to have flown this "16 year old" girl into the state. You know, an actress to play the part, but can never get any credit. It's about the same change that Mr. Bush has had to fly into Iraq those WMD's - on a C-130. It's only a matter of time that this "girl' that was used to ignite this powder dump will come forth - even if you have to invent her.
==============================================
'Busload' Of Children Removed From Polygamist Compound After Sex Abuse Report
==============================================
Written by: Doug G. Ware
Email: dware@kutv2.com
Last Update: 4/04 3:45 pm
Print Story | Email Story
Polygamous Compound 'Raided' By Authorities
Members of the Texas Rangers law enforcement agency arrive at a polygamous compound in Texas used by the FLDS church. April 4, 2008.
Members of the Texas Rangers law enforcement agency arrive at a polygamous compound in Texas used by the FLDS church. April 4, 2008.
EL DORADO, Tex. - Texas authorities removed several children on Friday from a polygamous compound that was essentially built by Warren Jeffs -- after raiding the large building with search warrants in-hand.
Local police, along with Texas State troopers and the Texas Rangers sealed off the compound on Thursday night -- after receiving a complaint from a runaway that children inside were being sexually abused. Officials did not let anyone go in or out, and didn't even let airplanes or helicopters fly overhead.
Friday afternoon, Texas state troopers escorted a bus from the compound which contained several children -- but mostly girls, state child welfare officials said. Officials did not immediately say whether the children taken away had been abused.
The compound was purchased by Jeffs' Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (FLDS) four years ago as a retreat for followers of the faith. It is said that Jeffs himself even spent some time at the compound in the past.
The compound, called the "Yearning For Zion Ranch," has approximately 150 people living inside -- all of whom presumably are believers in the FLDS faith. It is located approximately 150 miles northwest of San Antonio.
Jeffs, who was arrested in August 2007 on child rape-related charges, was once -- and might still be -- considered the FLDS church's prophet.
The "Yearning For Zion" ranch is a retreat for followers of the FLDS faith located in El Dorado, Tex. (Photo: Randy Mankin/Eldorado Success)
The "Yearning For Zion" ranch is a retreat for followers of the FLDS faith located in El Dorado, Tex. (Photo: Randy Mankin/Eldorado Success)
Jeffs was captured near Las Vegas, Nev. in 2007 traveling in an SUV allegedly loaded with electronic equipment, disguises and thousands of dollars in cash. He had been wanted for years by local and federal authorities for allegedly arranging the marriages of young girls to older men.
In November 2007, Jeffs was sentenced to two five years-to-life prison sentences, which will be served consecutively. He still faces similar charges in Arizona.
On Friday, authorities said that everyone inside the compound was cooperating and that no one had been placed under arrest. It was not revealed how many people inside were being questioned or investigated, or how long the investigation would last.
Friday's news of the raid invoked memories of a similar incident in 1993, when FBI agents -- acting on reports of child abuse inside a different religious retreat in Waco, Texas -- forced their way into the Branch Davidian compound, which resulted in a massive fire and nearly 100 deaths.
To this day, it is not clear whether the fire was started by the people inside -- or accidentally by the FBI. David Koresh, the cult's proclaimed leader, was among those who died in the incident.
Overkill In Eldorado Texas? - This Sounds and Looks Like A Very Bad Movie
April 4, 2008
Overkill In Eldorado Texas?
Posted by Guy Murray under FLDS, FLDS Texas Raid, Polygamy, Warren Jeffs | Tags: FLDS, FLDS Texas Raid, Polygamy, Warren Jeffs |
FLDS RaidThe FLDS Church is again making headlines, this time in Eldorado Texas, the latest FLDS compound. This is the biggest news splash since the Warren Jeffs’ conviction last year on charges of accomplice to rape. There are several MSM sources for this breaking story. (My Update posted here).
One of the better stories appears in the Salt Lake Tribune:
An investigation into whether a middle-aged man married a teenage girl has spurred child services agents in Texas to remove 52 girls from an FLDS compound there. Eighteen of the 52 girls have been taken into state custody. The rest are being interviewed away from the compound. The girls range in age from 6 months to 17 years of age.
A spokesman for the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services, Patrick Crimmins, said he did not know why the children were removed.
A search and arrest warrant shows Texas authorities are investigating whether 50-year-old Dale Barlow married and fathered a child with a 16-year-old polygamy.
Barlow is not new to criminal sexual abuse investigations, having previously pled no contest to conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor:
Barlow, 50, is a son of former Colorado City, Ariz., mayor Dan Barlow; he also was one of eight Colorado City men accused by Arizona prosecutors in 2005 of marrying underage girls and committing sex crimes.
He pleaded no contest in Superior Court in April 2007 to conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor, and a second charge was dropped. The victim was a 16-year-old girl with whom he had a son. He was later sentenced to 45 days in jail and three years on probation.
The Texas warrants, provided by the San Angelo Standard newspaper, allow police to arrest Barlow and seize records of his alleged marriage to the girl and records of a baby girl he may have fathered with the teenager. The baby is believed to be 8 months old, the warrant says. Barlow and the teenager are the only people named in the warrant. It’s unclear how an investigation into their relationship lead to the removal of 52 other girls.
Texas raid removes girls from FLDS compoundUnclear indeed how this type of investigation would result in the removal of 52 other girls. Either 52 girls were named in these warrants or criminal complaints, or someone has gone a little overboard in this investigation. I have not read anything in any of the media accounts that would suggest facts sufficient to support the wholesale removal of 52 other girls, or the armed response of the equivalent of a small army.
Certainly if there are facts supporting criminal allegations of child abuse, sexual abuse, or any other criminal violations, those facts should be thoroughly investigated, and prosecuted if warranted. I am a bit troubled by the investigation focusing on a middle aged man who allegedly married a minor, which results in the removal of some 52 other girls from the compound.
The Tribune also reported the investigation began as a result of claims of sexual abuse:
Questions at the ranch. At the Texas ranch, investigators interviewed children throughout the morning. Schleicher County Attorney Raymond Loomis said a girl’s accusation that she was sexually abused triggered the raid, which began about 5:30 p.m. on Thursday. “Some girl at the compound called the sheriff’s office and said she was being abused,” Loomis told The Salt Lake Tribune.
This version is contradicted by reports out of a San Angelo Texas newspaper:
Earlier today, Meisner confirmed that CPS responded to a complaint, but officials at the scene could not say whether the complaint was made from within or outside the ranch. A DPS spokesman declined to say how many people were being interviewed, or how many officers were involved.
Schleicher County Justice of the Peace James C. Doyle dismissed reports appearing in Utah newspapers that a specific allegation of sexual abuse triggered the complaint, calling it “hearsay” - one of several rumors circulating around Eldorado and repeated by another Schleicher County official.
Also troubling is the fact that these arrest and search warrants have apparently not yet been publicly released:
The warrants, signed by Tom Green County District Judge Barbara Walther, and the affidavits filed with them have not been released pending a decision on whether they can or should be made public, a court administrator said.
I have looked, and not yet found the actual search and arrest warrants, which I will post, if I can find them. Other good media sources for this story include:
(Update 4/5/08 7:30 a.m.) This morning’s Deseret News reports that 167 children have been removed from the FLDS compound in Texas. This seems like an astounding number. If there were evidence sufficient for the state of Texas to remove 167 children from their homes, where did it come from, and what is it? If there is that much evidence of child and sexual abuse, why did it take this long for Texas to raid this compound? This story gets more bizzare as it develops.
(Further Update 4/5/08 8:00 a.m.) A new Salt Lake Tribune story reports that a Texas judge has now ordered the removal of all FLDS children, boys and girls, under age 18, from the FLDS compound.
For other bloggernacle discussion see Matt B’s post over a Mormon Mentality. Also, BIV has a good post as well over at Hieing to Kolob.
USA Today
The Eldorado Success
Star Telegram
Deseret News
Salt Lake Tribune (On why the raid may do more harm than good)
CNN
The worst captioned story belongs, not surprisingly to the New York Times, which contains the egregious error of describing the FLDS Church as a “Mormon” sect, which is of course just sloppy reporting.
39 Responses to “Overkill In Eldorado Texas?”
1. Nick Literski Says:
April 5, 2008 at 8:10 am
167 children? Fascinating, given that yesterday’s news reports only estimated 200 residents of the YFZ Ranch. It makes me wonder what percentage of children on the ranch (or at least what percentage of female children?) that represents.
The whole thing has shades of Short Creek, except that the fathers haven’t all been rounded up and arrested yet. With yesterday’s motivation claim (young girl calling in, claiming she was being sexually abused) now being denied, you have to wonder who made the supposed “complaint,” and how many child “protection” service workers were just chomping at the bit to “rescue” all the children from their families.
2. mondo cool Says:
April 5, 2008 at 9:29 am
Wonder if the fact that two “First Baptist Church of Eldorado” buses were used to remove the children means anything?
3. Guy Murray Says:
April 5, 2008 at 11:54 am
Nick and Mondo,
Yeah, this is a fascinating story. Watching it unfold will be an interesting endeavor. Perhaps there is evidence to support such a wide ranging investigation/raid. Time will tell. I thought the same thing about the Baptist connection here. I don’t know the answer to be truthful.
Thanks for your thoughts.
4. Jeff Day Says:
April 5, 2008 at 2:57 pm
One site I read said the children taken were ranging from 6 months old and up. I am absolutely shocked and offended that anyone would take 6 month old children (and even older ones) away from their homes without disclosing to the public the reasoning behind it. This compound is a religious group, and while their understanding of marriage may be different than some, I believe them for the most part to be dedicated people of high moral standards. I cannot believe that these children would be taken away without their mothers (and father or fathers), and I refuse to believe that the entire group of parents would be “dangerous” enough to warrant this removal.
Until I hear news justifying this, my personal sympathy for this group of polygamists is going way up.
BTW: Nick Literski, could you please email me? I am afraid my email sent about 6 months ago and another more recently didn’t get through to you.
5. Liza Says:
April 6, 2008 at 12:26 am
“I could hardly breathe, just knowing what these woman & children had to go thru”! But, not only that, knowing that my parents live in Sonora, Texas. God is good, and Justice shall be done.
6. Liza Says:
April 6, 2008 at 12:31 am
To modo cool-
after entering my comment. I went back to read all others. (As for the Baptist- God Forbid You Are Wrong)!
7. jes Says:
April 6, 2008 at 5:37 am
To Jeff Day
Would you leave a 6 mos old in the hands of a meth dealer? Do you condone the sexual abuse of children in the name of God? Do you believe the sexual abuse of children represents ‘high moral standards?
These people are accused of criminal activity and their children should be removed, especially if the crimes involve the abuse of their children. This is not marriage. That is between consenting ADULTS.
8. JMOEM Says:
April 6, 2008 at 8:31 pm
Has anyone been to Hildale/Colorado City and seen the look of fear in the eyes of the women and children that live there when they see a stranger in town? I have it it’s a very sad thing to see in these United States. Those eyes show fear and curiosity. Their mental state is plain to see. Should you try talking to them they will look to see if anyone is watching and then hurry off. It is like visiting the “Twilight Zone” right here in America.
9. Jane Says:
April 7, 2008 at 10:24 am
The children were taken in voluntary accompaniment of their female adult relatives, including their mothers if their mothers chose to go. Most of the mothers had been forced into marriage to strangers or relatives at a young age and did not have the freedom to come and go as they pleased and as is mandated under U.S. law. They are prisoners of the FLDS men. Until you get these women and children away from the men, and the women came choicefully, they are not free to speak without fear for their safety and future freedom and without fear for the safety and freedom of their children. The six-month olds in some cases were likely children of teenaged children who had been forced to marry older men. Would you take the underaged mothers for questioning and examination of their mental and physical health and leave their infants behind? The leaders of this cult put the women and children in this position, and I guarantee that though they are afraid, some will hope to escape and live in freedom, freedom to live and worship freely according to their conscience and their choice, free to marry who they will and to raise their children safely according to their conscience and not according to fear.
10. Jane Says:
April 7, 2008 at 10:57 am
If the FLDS guards had complied with the law and produced the girl in the first place, they would not necessarily have exposed all the community to the search and questioning. As it was, eighteen girls were deemed to have been abused or in imminent danger of being abused. I wonder how many of those are child brides, possibly pregnant or with small children already.
11. G Haskins Says:
April 7, 2008 at 12:52 pm
Something doesn’t add up here… They estimate between 300 - 400 people at the compound. Of that number, about 200 children have been removed. That leaves 100-200 adults? Now if each man is said to have multiple wives, how many of that remaining 100 or 200 people could be men? Maybe 50 or so? So now how is it that 50 men could build an entire city, complete with a utilities infrastructure, not to mention a temple as well, and still have any time left for low and filthy habits of sexual abuse against young girls?
12. D Stevenson Says:
April 7, 2008 at 2:02 pm
The rescue of more than 400 children to date from the FLDS compound in Schleicher County (El Dorado), Texas, is considerably ovedue. There are only a handful of men. Most of the construction on the ‘child abuse temple’ is done by male children, who are employed as a mobile, expendible labor force. The women now in a shelter should be arrested on violations of Chapters 20 (Kidnappping and unlawful restraint), 20A (Trafficking of Persons), 21 (Sexual Offenses) and 25 (Offenses against the Family) of the Texas Penal Code. More than half of the children, particularly the male children have no parents present in Schleicher or Tom Green County (San Angelo), Texas. They have been brought in as part of a “forced labor” (TPC 20A.01 (1) group to work in the compound. In all likelihood they were tranported across state lines in violation of Federal law. The so-called FLDS Church is not a religious organization in any sense of the word. It is a criminal organization. Its women are the glue that holds the organization together. Not only should the children be placed permanently in good Christian foster homes in Texas. The women involved should be prosecuted for their role in the exploitation and abuse of these children. They are the persons directly responsible for the abuse.
13. Al Says:
April 7, 2008 at 2:32 pm
My opinion is that all these women and children were removed to assure their safety during search, (nobody wants another Waco incident), and all court dates postponed until there is enough evidence for next legal steps.
Believing and practicing religion are two different things.
Only fundamentalists have need to “shield” their members from outside world, and it’s not hard to figure out why.
My issue is this double standard those FLDS members are imposing at other people. The “wicked” people from outside are evil, according to their teaching, but their working and business opportunities, as well as the social security checks (they all are getting and turning in, instead using them for its purpose)…..are good and not poisoned??
Just imagine that all churches build nice tall walls around their properties and members keep their children home schooling by barely literate mothers…. what would happen next?
14. Christopher Says:
April 7, 2008 at 4:43 pm
The response by authorities to a rumored phone call from a girl without a name that no one can locate is a terrible and scary indictment of the justice and legal system in Texas. I don’t see how that justifies taking 400+ children from their homes under the pretense that they appear “to have been abused or in imminent danger of being abused” (a terribly ambiguous notion in and of itself).
There’s too much that doesn’t add up here. Based on the evidence to this point, it seems to me that the most reasonable explanation is that either (a) no phone call was ever placed, or (b) the phone call was from a phony person.
By no means am I defending abuse or exploitation of children, but I don’t see enough hard evidence to convince me that that’s going on here.
15. Joseph Says:
April 7, 2008 at 4:45 pm
CPS has a right and is bound by law to take these kids if they notice any problems.. Maybe locals have grown cold and approve of this sick behavior but the real world is not going to stand by and watch these filthy old men use the kids for there own wishes get a life this is 21st century.
16. Steve 45 Says:
April 7, 2008 at 4:55 pm
Lots of gossip & opinion above, but how much fact?
From about 1960-1963, when growing up in California as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, one of my best friends was a boy named Steven (”Steve” ;) Michael Murphy, oldest son of James B. (native of Milwaukee, WI) and Roxie Hawkins Murphy (of Safford, AZ). This couple had other children: Kim, Terry and Shawn Michael. Kim married Dick Young (prominent attorney), and they live in Littleton, CO. I believe Terry and Shawn, both married, live in the Salt Lake Valley. These families are/were all active in the L.D.S. Church the last I heard, except for Steve.
As a teenager, I spent nearly every afternoon at the Murphy home in Santa Clara with other friends lifting weights, playing ping-pong, just having good clean fun.
At 19, Steve went on an L.D.S. mission to The Netherlands. His mission president was Alvin R. Dyer, and I always wondered how it changed his life. I was at BYU when he returned. We soon became roommates. By changed life, I mean he had different behaviors than I’d ever seen before in any L.D.S. person. The most noticeable was that he would always keep his head bowed for another 10-20 seconds following the close of a simple blessing on food, or any other prayer. In a way, I guess I still respected him for this, yet I wondered. BYU is a haven for dating, and he did get right into that. However, his dating was restricted to reading the scriptures with any girl he took out. Really different. I often wondered how different girls responded. Most Mormons read and study scriptures, but this was extreme.
I’d guess, in about 1968, Steve married a young woman named Vicki (can’t recall her maiden name) from Virginia who lived across the street from our apartments. She was full of life, a relatively new convert to the Church. Later, I moved into a house in a nearby neighborhood, and discovered that they lived just a few doors down, so we continued our friendship.
In 1972, after marrying, I finished a masters degree. My wife and I moved to California. A couple of weekends later, I flew back to Utah for my thesis defense, and stayed with them in Salt Lake City for a few days. While in their home, Steve introduced me to a series of John Birch Society tapes about the New World Order, how an evil secret global leftist society of elitists (Kennedys, Rothschilds, etc.) was going to take us over with a one-world government. I must admit that it was quite impressionable.
A few years later, when my family and I were traveling through Utah, we stopped to see them again, this time in Sandy, Utah. They had no children, and were living with another family. I thought that was a little odd, but people do find different living accommodations. During a long late evening walk, Steve told me that the L.D.S. Church was going through a great transition, that there would be a great divide among its membership soon.
The next year, I was passing through the Denver Airport and stopped to phone his sister Kim. With great emotion, she explained that at the time we’d visited them in Sandy, he was already practicing polygamy. Hence, the other family they were living with. She said he had at that time already been excommunicated from the Mormon Church. He was a youth seminary teacher in North Salt Lake City, and had tried to talk a girl in his class into marrying him in polygamy. She also said that he’d taken his several families into the Wasatch Mountains to live, that he was then a private school principal, and that they lived on a goat farm. She said that the whole deal had ripped her extended family apart. In years later, Kim wrote to say that Steve and Vicki had divorced.
In 1984, I passed through Salt Lake City again. I couldn’t find Steve’s phone number in the directory, but found his brother, Terry’s and phoned him. He seemed very reluctant to even talk with me, and outright refused to give me Steve’s phone number. I suggested I give my number to him so he could have Steve phone me. In a few moments, my phone rang, and Steve drove up to the front of the L.D.S. Church office building shortly thereafter, the last time I saw him. As we rode around together for the ensuing 4 hours, we talked about everything.
I know Steve is a very religious person, in word and deed. I’m certain he practically has the scriptures memorized. He explained that his group had their own temple activity. As far as he was concerned, his organization (not sure it had a name) was many steps above the (evil) Mormon Church, and that God was leading his church.
A few years ago, through another friend, I got an e-mail address for Steve’s father, Jim who lived in/near Nephi, Utah with wife Roxie. He explained that Steve and families then lived in Nevada (where polygamy is/was apparently legal), and often secretly visited his parents in Nephi. I haven’t had communication with any of these folks for the past 15-20 years.
I know these people are very good people. The kid was my best friend when we were teenagers. I have no idea if Steve is involved with the Jeffs group, but have been curious. He just really took a strange leap, I thought. Certainly nothing to do with my church today.
17. Richard 59 Says:
April 7, 2008 at 6:37 pm
The LDS church is probably the most family oriented church in existense today albeit they really do have a very strange belief system. The FLDS on the other hand are no better than the Fundamental extreme muslims that breed terrorism throughout thw worls. FLDS , I think, should be considered domestic trerrorists and delat with accordingly. The bible I read does not defend nor preach such criminal acts as these people have done to their OWN women and children.
The LDS need to stand up and condemn these criminal acts.
18. Shannon 41 Says:
April 7, 2008 at 8:24 pm
God bless those innocent children and may the rest of your community band together to help ANY child, regardless of religion, if they are in need. If I can help support one, or several children and their mothers through this ordeal I will do just that.
Let’s hope that the long arm of the law puts an end to public abuse of women and children.
Regards,
Shannon 41 - former long time resident of Creston B.C. Canada (home of Bountiful colony)
19. GMcDaniel Says:
April 7, 2008 at 9:00 pm
Due to meth abuse, the CPS system in the state of Texas is so overworked and underpaid that is unreasonable to believe the CPS workers were dying to go anywhere and take on 400 new cases. I lived in San Angelo for 20 years and worked for an agency that had to work with CPS on many cases and know that in my dealings with the CPS employees they tried to be fair and get all the facts before making decisions about removing children. They had to have a court order to remove anyone and the judge had to believe there was grounds for removal. In order for CPS to remove anyone, there would need to be statements made by the victims or the victims’ mother about abuse or neglect or the threat of imminent danger. Because juvenile cases are not open to the public, we will never know the details of the cases, nor should we. Why we as Americans believe we have the right to know everything, is amazing to me. If it were my child or family members, I would want the rest of the world to take a hike and leave us alone. We need to not keep victimizing these people by insisting we need to know the whole story. Since the women were taken with the children, the children are with people they know and trust. The news clips I have seen of the children outside playing at the church and or community center showed children acting like children. They did not seem to be too fearful to play. Have any of you considered the amount of foster homes that will be needed to house all of these children? When I moved away from there last summer, they were in dire need of foster homes. I have no reason to believe that there is an abundance of them at this time. Especially not to house that many children.
If you have ever worked for a state agency you would not believe any other state agency would want to have to process the paperwork for 400 cases that were not legitimate.It will be a paperwork nightmare for all involved.
It also seems that many have not considered that if they are practicing polygamy, it is against the law. If the teen age girls were forced into marriages and were raped, that is illegal, too. The only safe way to sort this out would be to have them moved to a location where they were not with possible abusers.
I do have concerns about why any legitimate group, religious or otherwise, would need to guard their place with assault weapons and night vision goggles. I have personally seen guards at the gate of the compound with weapons while traveling past it to complete a home visit. Were they trying to keep the public out or the people in? All other churches I know of, seek those in need and welcome them into their temples or churches. When we start keeping people in or out at gunpoint, one would have to wonder why.
The comment about the Baptist Church buses being used was rather interesting. If you had ever been to Eldorado, you would realize that there were not alot of options for transporting that many people, anywhere. There were not alot of options about where to put that many people, either. They could have used school buses, if they could find whoever was in charge of them when the police and CPS called to find transportation. I assume since they had already contacted the church about taking the people in, it only makes sense the church would volunteer the buses, too or vice versa. I know many people in Eldorado, they are just good old West Texas people for the most part. I know rich ones, poor ones, nosey ones and private ones, religous ones and some that probably never graced the doors of a church but when called upon to help out, they would all do so in a heart beat. I have watched them pull together and help one another on many occasions and am not surprised they were doing what they could to help. Some of you seem to think this a huge conspiracy but the mere logistical problems of feeding and sheltering that many people in a town that size is a daunting one. If you are not from a small town that does not even have a fast food place unless you count the grill inside the convenience store, you cannot imagine the task and expense of feeding 450 people three meals a day plus taking care of your own. When you decide to go offer assistance in one of these situations, then you might have a whole different perspective of what has gone on in the West Texas town of Eldorado. If we find out they over reacted, well so what? How many times do we have to read that CPS left a child or children in a home and then they were killed for people to understand it is better to remove the children while sorting through the details then leaving them to be whisked off in the middle of the night to continue being abused. Being removed from their home for a few days is not nearly as detrimental to a child as being left in the situation by the ones you hoped would save you. By the way, if the 50 year old has done nothing wrong, why has he not turned himself in?
20. From Bad To Worse in The West Texas Town of Eldorado « Messenger and Advocate Says:
April 7, 2008 at 9:55 pm
[...] and disrupted their family life, keeping the mothers and the children from their fathers: (previous FLDS raid post) The children are being kept at a temporary shelter at historic Fort Concho in nearby San Angelo [...]
21. Faye M. Says:
April 7, 2008 at 11:06 pm
The last post indicated this person has much more knowledge of the Texas CPS system than most. All need to be aware of Texas Family Code laws governing CPS actions to understand what is happening. And has the law has required, now a Court has heard evidence and has removed all the children based on that evidence. CPS has to quickly appear in Court and the Court rules.
22. W, A, Summers Says:
April 8, 2008 at 1:27 pm
04-08-2008
I’m beginning to sense why many folks give up on
the daily hard copy media and come online for what
facts and reason they can find regarding a story.
I am dismayed 300% by the “lap dog” quality of the
journalism in the Houston Chronicle and the Austin
Statesman American. On the surface one wonders if
the Duke Lacross rape story looked about this way
when it was initially deemed front-page worthy. I am more scared to a wayward State of Texas than of an
eccentric group of “other worlders”.
23. Tossed to and Fro Says:
April 8, 2008 at 1:32 pm
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/21073/flds-polygamous-sect
Above is link you might be interested in. Some intriguing videos as well.
24. Schumacher Says:
April 8, 2008 at 8:56 pm
Wichita, KS Oops made a mistake on KAKE 10 a couple of days ago and called them a ‘militia’. Could the demonization have begun? Like they did at Waco. I think the lawyers should pull up all the video this station ran and find that. I believe what is going on is a real ugly matter and all of the hurt these people are facing is absolutely horrible. My prayers are with them and my anger burns inside for how authorities are handling a simple call of what they say is due to one man. But I’m also glad I don’t have many more years left to witness this kind of evil much anymore.
25. Dr. D. E. Stevenson, Ph.D. Says:
April 8, 2008 at 10:37 pm
It is a tribute to Texas that they had the courage to do what Utah, Arizona, Nevada and other western states have been afraid to do. They raided the FLDS ranch in Schleicher County and arrested the leaders. Now they need to arrest at least some of the women. Many are just as bad as the men.
The smartest thing Texas CPS and law enforcement could do was to get the children and adult females out of Schleicher County, where the County Sheriff, Sheriff David Doran (Phone: 325-853-2737), sympathizes with the FLDS cult leaders. The next thing they need to do is get the children placed with permanent foster parents all over Texas.
The women who went to the shelter with the children must be separated from the children. The children must be sent to different parts of Texas, and the women, particularly the children’s mothers must never be allowed to see them again before their 18th birthdays. Mothers less than 18 must be placed in foster care without their children. Mothers older than 18 must be taken into custody and their children removed from them.
Senior adult females must be prosecuted for child endangerment (5 TPC 22.041) and child abuse (5 TPC 22.04). They contribute to the abuse as much as the males in this cult. Females over 18 and under 25 should be placed in protective custody as material witnesses. They should then be placed in shelters for abused and battered women and required to receive counseling to help them overcome many years of mental, physical and sexual abuse. Many were married as young as 12 and most were married before age 15.
Too many people see the women in the FLDS cult as victims of the men who ostensibly run the cult. To some degree this is true. However, by the time they have reached the age of 25, most have been married for more than 10 years. By this time they have participated in the physical, mental and sexual abuse of their own children. By the time they are 30, most have consented to father-daughter incest and the forced marriage of their daughters to other males in the cult.
When their husbands are absent, the FLDS women are the glue that holds the cult together. They are the ones that brain wash the children. When a husband has 10 to 15 wives, he can only be in the home about once a month. Most of the damage in these families is done by the women. When the men are imprisoned or have to go into hiding outside the community or outside the country, the women hold the community together.
I first became aware of what is now the FLDS polygamist cult in 1975, about 13 years before moving to Texas to work for the Texas Agricultural Extension Service. At that time I was working as a field Agronomist and Entomologist for the Intermountain Farmers Association (IFA) Co-op, a large interstate farmers Cooperative with its headquarters in Salt Lake City, UT. In March of 1975, I was introduced to LeRoy Johnson, the leader of the polygamist cult known as the Council of Friends. This cult later became the FLDS, which bought the ranch that was recently raided in Schleicher County (El Dorado), TX.
At that time, he maintained several households in different parts of Arizona, Utah and Wyoming. I first met him in Manti, Utah, but I did most of my business with him in Colorado City, Arizona. I never knew his first name until I heard his death announced in 1986. I only knew him as “Brother Johnson.” From 1975 until 1986, I sold fertilizer, seed, pesticides and other farm supplies to him and other members of this cult.
It is true that the cult members are leery of outsiders, particularly those whom they have not met before. However, it is untrue that they regard all outsiders as agents of Satan. I have remained on good terms with many of the men and some of their wives and children from that time. I also saw much of the abuse produced by this and two other large polygamous cults in Utah.
The women of the cult usually acted as a front and as a shield for the men, who were far more paranoid about outside contacts. When I received word that “Brother Johnson” wanted to see me about one of his farms, I would drive to the IFA branch in St. George, Utah. There, I would call his telephone number. A woman would answer, and I would leave a message that I would be in that area for the day. A few minutes later, the telephone would ring and “Brother Johnson” would tell me some isolated place to meet him. There we would conduct our business.
It was during this time that I discovered how much the women of the cult were involved. It should have been intuitive after the 1944 and 1953 arrest and imprisonment of the male adherents to the cult. The women held the cult together until their mates were out of prison. In all business with Johnson and others, I usually had to go through a wife or daughter.
I also discovered that it was often the wives of the male adherents to the cult that recruited other men and women. The women usually broached the subject to wives they considered prime candidates for their husband. When this did not yield results, they then appealed to the husband and his wife together.
Household goods were usually purchased by women. A shopping group would often come to town with an older woman leading the group with two teenage wives and a number of older children of both sexes to help carry items to the car or pickup truck to carry them home. The older wives were dependable senior members of the cult and would prevent runaways. The teenage wives always left their infants behind, which was effective in preventing escapes.
It was in 1978, when I found out about the forced marriages of 12 to 15 year old girls. In April of that year, 16 year old Jeff Carlisle appeared on the streets of my home town. He appeared lost and was picked up by the police. He informed them that he was the oldest son of a local polygamist farmer named Elmo Carlisle. He had run away from home because he was about to be married to four girls from Colorado City, AZ. He was placed in foster care and was not allowed to return to his parents. He did not return to the polygamists after he finished high school and now enjoys a comparatively normal life.
However, the affair did not end there. The following spring, in May of 1979, while delivering corn seed to the Carlisle farm, I was met by Elmo and Jeff’s younger brother. Elmo had his son help me unload the corn seed and informed me that his son had married the girls intended for Jeff. Elmo pointed to four single wide trailer houses and said that they were the homes of his son’s new wives. While we were putting the corn seed away, a girl that appeared to be 12 or 13 years old poked her head out of one of the mobile homes and called to Jeff’s brother. He hung his head and turned and walked toward the trailer with all the appearance of a whipped dog. It was then I saw the effect of these child marriages on everyone involved.
Through Johnson’s time, most families held their own property, ran their own farms and businesses, and paid their own taxes. After Johnson’s death, the entire personality of the cult changed with Rulon Jeffs’ seizure of power in 1986. He changed the name of the cult from the Council of Friends to FLDS. After registering it as a church, he consolidated all privately held properties under the church’s corporate authority with him as president. Jeffs refused to recognize government authority or to pay taxes. Many properties outside the area of Colorado City, AZ, were lost to tax auctions. The Carlisle farm was auctioned in 1988, and the Carlisles were thrown onto the road. I moved to Texas for the next 20 years. Now that I have retired and returned home, no one appears to know what became of them.
Rulon Jeffs was secretive, incestuous and paranoid. It was during this time that Jeffs began isolating the group from outsiders. After 1987, they began to teach members that outsiders were all agents of Satan, and that contact with persons outside the group was a sin. Serious physical, mental and sexual abuse of wives and children began at this time. Increasing accounts of incest began at about the same time.
In March, 1985, while working as the Utah Sales Manager for Snake River Chemical, Inc., a branch of United Agri-Products, Inc., then a subsidiary of Con-Agra Corp., I was looking for a warehouse. I contacted a realtor about a building in Orem, UT. When I went to inspect the building, I was met by a woman who showed the building. She made arrangements for me to meet the building’s owner, J. O. Kingston. His office was on the second floor of a dilapidated building that had a biker bar on the ground floor. He was a fidgety little man who appeared suspicious of everything. We could not come to an agreement, and only later I found out that he was the notorious leader of the Kingston polygamy group who was under indictment for more than 170 counts of welfare fraud.
The group led by J. O. Kingston was probably the most notorious for its incest practices. Male members married cousins, nieces, sisters and daughters to produce hundreds of children. Kingston’s offspring were used primarily as disposable labor. In the CO-OP Coal Mine in Huntington Canyon, Emory County, Utah, children were used as mine labor to produce coal, which was sold in a coal yard in Sandy, Salt Lake County, Utah. When a children were killed in mine accidents, they were buried in the slack pile. When the Emory County Sheriff investigated reports of these accidents, the slack pile caught fire. It is still burning to this day.
Rulon Jeffs took a leaf out of the Kingston’s book, when he began to use surplus male children as a mobile, disposable labor force. Male children between the ages of 8 and 18 are used in construction and mining projects. By this time their sisters are actively engaged in sexual activities with their fathers or are married to older men. If males are lost or run away from forced labor projects, the ratio of males to females declines in favor of the polygamous practices of the cult.
These are the children of the Schleicher County FLDS compound. If there is any justice, they will be taken away from their mothers and put in decent foster homes until they are 18. The mothers under 18 should likewise be placed in foster care and given serious counseling. The women under 25, who were forced into marriage and were victims of incest should be placed in shelters apart from each other and treated for the mental trauma of their ordeal. Older, senior “wives” should be prosecuted and given sentences equal to or greater than their husbands, because they are the glue that hold this cult together. Without them, it couldn’t exist.
26. Skeptic Says:
April 8, 2008 at 11:25 pm
The demonization sounds much the same as the Waco tragedy. The Waco debacle started as a gun case and ended with all of the Davidians being demonized as monsters. Any time I see elaborate justifications and demonization occurring I am skeptical.
The original warrant is the keystone of the entry so the authorities must locate the caller if they expect the case to survive. The state has attempted to develop a second warrant after the initial entry, so I would surmise they have doubts about the original claims. The second warrant will not survive if the initial complaint is proven to be unfounded.
There will be a powerful case against the state here due to the sweeping nature of the removal. The state has removed 100% of the children which strikes at the heart of the religion itself, making the move unconstitutional. The order will more than likely be quashed due to the sweeping nature of the removal.
I do not know anything about this religion and am not very interested learning about it. This case will become a major federal challenge on constitutional grounds. Many errors have occurred and the authorities will be forced to address them tomorrow when the church files to quash the original warrant in San Angelo.
If abuse is occurring it must be addressed, however the way it has been addressed here is not acceptable under our constitution. The laws of the land are for everyone, even those who society hates. I know activists hate our constitution; however the difficulties of this case must be addressed properly.
1st Amendment
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
27. Dr. D. E. Stevenson, Ph.D. Says:
April 9, 2008 at 9:28 am
The arrest of the criminals at the YFZ Ranch in Schleicher County, TX, and actions to rescue their victims has nothing to do with “free exercise” of religion. It has everything to do with the enforcement of constitutional laws.
The First Amendment does not apply to the authority of Texas to arrest religious polygamists or take their children away from them. The First Amendment issues surrounding State and Federal sovergnty over the religious actions of citizens was decided exactly 130 years ago in the case of Reynolds v. United States.
Reynolds v. United States, 98 U.S. 145, 25 L. Ed. 244 (1878), was a Supreme Court of the United States decision that held that religious duty was not a suitable defense to a criminal indictment. George Reynolds was a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, charged with violation of the Morrill Anti Bigamy Act of 1862 (5352 Revised Statutes, now 8 US Code 1154 and 18 US Code 633) after marrying Amelia Jane Schofield while still married to Mary Ann Tuddenham.
Reynolds primary argument was that the act was unconstitutional and violated his right to free exercise of religion under the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. Reynolds had argued that as a Mormon, it was his religious duty as a male member of the church to practice polygamy. The Supreme Court held that he was entitled to his religious opinion, but in knowingly violating US laws, his acts were punishable under that code.
The opinion, written by Chief Justice Morrison Waite, was unanimous and was joined by Justices Nathan Clifford, Noah Haynes Swayne, Samuel Freeman Miller, William Strong, Joseph Philo Bradley, Ward Hunt and John Marshall Harlan, with Justice Stephen Johnson Field writing a concurring opinion. Such unanimous decisions have never been overturned.
The opinion stated: “The freedom to act is conditional and relative and Congress may prescribe and enforce certain conditions to control conduct which may be contrary to a person’s religious beliefs in the interest of the public welfare and protection of society. Laws are made for the government of actions, and while they cannot interfere with mere religious belief and opinions, they may with practices.” (98 U.S. at 167.)
The Supreme Court recognized that under the First Amendment, the Congress cannot pass a law that prohibits the free exercise of religion. However it argued that the law prohibiting bigamy did not fall under this.
Although the constitution did not define religion, the Court investigated the history of religious freedom in the United States. In the ruling, the court quoted Thomas Jefferson’s Danbury letter, in which he stated that there was a distinction between religious belief and action that flowed from religious belief. The former “lies solely between man and his God,” therefore “the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions.”
The court argued that if we allowed polygamy, how long before someone argued that human sacrifice was a necessary part of their religion. The Court recognized that religious practice could not be accepted as justification for an overt criminal act; that to permit a man to excuse his unlawful practices because of his religious belief “would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land, and in effect to permit every citizen to become a law unto himself. Government could exist only in name under such circumstances.” (98 U.S. 167)
The Court believed the true spirit of the First Amendment was that Congress could not legislate against opinion but could legislate against action.
The criminals in the FLDS cult should and must be prosecuted for their crimes under the Texas Penal Code, other Texas Statutes and the U.S. Code. Their victims should receive all the aid and protection afforded by the U.S. and Texas Constitutions and Texas State Codes.
28. Skeptic Says:
April 9, 2008 at 11:03 am
The search warrants will be the issue here not polygamy. Allowing hatred of these people to cloud legal judgment is not wise. The courts will be the arbitrator in this case. I have seen a lot of legal debate on this subject over the last few days and I have yet to see a single attorney agree with how this warrant was executed. I had never heard of this religion until a few days ago and do not agree with the religion they practice. This is a legal battle that will be resolved in the courts not on blogs where passion overtakes judgment.
If the search warrant used is based on false information to achieve a result it will be quashed. If the allegations are proven and the warrant is upheld the reach of the warrant will to be adjudicated. I do not make judgments on the religious nature of the church; I am concerned about the techniques used to achieve the end result. Activists are quick to toss freedoms in the garbage when they feel they have the only answer. Americans must always be diligent and keep everyone involved in cases like this honest.
Religion is going to be the centerpiece because the authorities made a sweeping accusation that applies to the entire organization instead of a thorough case by case adjudication of each case. Argument based on emotion not law is a very unstable philosophy. If abuses occurred they must be prosecuted according to Texas state law. The Supreme Court Reynolds v. United States case is based on a single litigant not an entire organization and that is a very important legal distinction. The reach of the warrant has entered new territory and the courts will be the final arbiter in this case. We will not see the final result of this action for many years.
The Supreme Court Reynolds v. United States:
The version of Jefferson’s Danbury letter which the Court used in Reynolds v. United States was in fact a mistaken transcription. While the Court quoted Jefferson as writing, “the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions”, Jefferson’s original handwriting reads “the legitimate powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions.”
29. Dr. D. E. Stevenosn, Ph.D. Says:
April 9, 2008 at 5:36 pm
The U.S. Supreme Court’s transcription of Jefferson’s Danbury letter used in Reynolds v. United States was in fact a mistaken transcription, but it was not a misreading. The decision, however biased and prejudiced against the Mormons, is now law. And it is based on the actual read of “the legitimate powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions.”
If religion is the centerpiece, then the FLDS criminals have lost already. More than a dozen precedents in the US Supreme Court go against religion as a defense of criminal activities. The defense has to be the narrowness of the warrant, which concerned a Jane Doe allegation of specific abuse. The warrant has not yet yielded specific evidence brought by the allegation. What it has yielded is evidence of a much larger, organized criminal activity. This evidence may be thrown out if the warrants came as a result of prejudice against the religious practices, previous criminal activity and other bad actions of the defendants.
This may let many of the senior and elderly women on the YFZ ranch off. Both of the men will go to prison for between two and five years. The two men both committed violations of the Texas Penal Code (TPC) for which juries in Texas always convict. These are resisting search (8 TPC 38.03), interference with an officer in the performance of his duty (8 TPC 38.15), and tampering with evidence (8 TPC 37.09). Each offense carries a mandatory minimum of 5 years in prison. These boys are going to be in Huntsville for a long time.
As far as the warrants are concerned, the Texas Code of Criminal Procedure (CCP) is one of the most liberal in the country. In all likelihood, the original warrant, naming Dale Barlow, will be quashed due to confusion in allegations to a specific offender. However, any evidence collected under it will not be subject to the exclusionary rule because of the “good faith” of the courts and officers issuing and executing the warrant (See Arizona v. Leon (1984). The second warrant issued under 1 CCP 18.021 to collect evidence of an injured child will be upheld because it was not only a “good faith” result of a report of child abuse, it was issued in good faith following a lawful report under Title 5 of the Texas Family Code (5 TFC 261.109 (a)). The exclusionary rule does not apply.
Under 5 TFC 261.109(a), “A person commits an offense if the person has cause to believe that a child’s physical or mental health or welfare has been or may be adversely affected by abuse or neglect and knowingly fails to report as provided in this chapter (Chapter 261).”
There is no way that the person receiving the call could legally ignore or refuse to report it. Warrants issued on that basis will not only be upheld, but all evidence collected pursuant to the warrant will be admissible in court.
The 16 year old girl making the call, however, has been identified (name of minors withheld by law) and is the two-year bride of Dale J. Barlow, a 50 year old cousin of Dale Barlow of Colorado City, AZ, convicted in Utah and Arizona of the rape of a child.
Texas authorities had no way of knowing this, and although the girl’s identity, and the correct identity of her husband, is “common knowledge” in Colorado City, AZ, and Hildale, UT, it is not generally know outside the two communities. It is unlikely that evidence of a criminal nature obtained in “good faith” in the search of the YFZ ranch will be declared “fruit of the poisoned tree.”
Under 1 CCP 18.021(a), “A search warrant may be issued to search for and photograph a child who is alleged to be the victim of the offenses of injury to a child as prohibited by Section 22.04, Penal Code; sexual assault of a child as prohibited by Section 22.011(a), Penal Code; aggravated sexual assault of a child as prohibited by Section 22.021, Penal Code; or continuous sexual abuse of young child or children as prohibited by Section 21.02, Penal Code.”
Under 1 CCP 18.10, the evidence obtained under an illegal warrant will still be admissible at trial, and the spousal privilege of so-called “plural wives” not to be called as a witness for the state “does not apply in any proceeding in which the person is charged with: (1) a crime committed against the person’s spouse, a minor child, or a member of the household of either spouse; or (2) an offense under Section 25.01, Penal Code (Bigamy).” Not only this, but under 1 CCP 38.072, hearsay evidence is admissible in the prosecution of crimes against minor children under the age of 12.
The exclusion of legitimate evidence from an overturned warrant in which a search was conducted in “good faith” has virtually no chance under the exclusionary rule in the Texas Courts (particularly the West Texas Courts), the Texas Supreme Court or U.S. Supreme Court.
The exclusionary rule is still regularly invoked by criminal defendants, including the FLDS criminals. However its golden age has passed. Since the 1980s, the U.S. Supreme Court has severely limited its application. According to the Court, this rule was not devised to cure all Fourth Amendment violations. Rather, it was designed primarily to deter police misconduct. This construction led to the Good Faith exception to Fourth Amendment violations established in United States v. Leon, 468 U.S. 897, 104 S. Ct. 3405, 82 L. Ed. 2d 677 (1984). The U.S. Supreme Court reversed state courts, holding that “evidence gathered in a search executed pursuant to a warrant later found to be defective should not be excluded from trial.”
Whether or not the warrants were defective, the evidence gathered under them is not a product of deliberate police misconduct. The evidence of criminal activity by FLDS adult males and females is incontrovertible and will be used in their prosecution. There are going to be a lot more inmates in Huntsville. In US v. Leon (1984), the Supreme Court found that the Fourth Amendment “contains no provisions expressly precluding the use of evidence obtained in violation of its commands.” “The exclusionary rule,” according to the majority, “was not designed to be a personal right. It was created by the Court to deter police misconduct rather than to punish the errors of judges and magistrates.” Under this interpretation, excluding evidence obtained through an honest mistake would serve no purpose.
The fact that the warrants were issued in “good faith” by the 51st District Court (Judge Barbara Walther) in Tom Green County (San Angelo), dispels much of allegation of the local prejudice against the sect. Had the warrants come from the Schleicher County Court (Judge Johnny Griffen), local prejudice and bias by the court might be called into question. However, it helps the state’s case that the 51st District Court covers multiple counties and is located in a major urban area (San Angelo). This places it to some degree away from the small town rural politics of Schleicher County.
Most of the later warrants will be upheld because in one way or another they involve polygamy and were issued in good faith. These issues have already been tested in the U.S. Supreme Court and allow for many exemptions of civil rights under the First, Fourth and Fifth Amendments. The decisions regarding religion occurred from 1878 to 1890, when the court was patently biased against the Mormons (See Reynolds v. United States, 98 U.S. 145 (187 8) and The Late Corporation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints v. United States, 136 U.S. 1 (1890), which not only criminalized religious practices, but also permitted seizure of religious property. Unfortunately, unlike Plessy v. Ferguson, 163 U.S. 537 (1896), the decisions are grounded in constitutional law. In spite of 19th century bigotry, overturning them is unlikely.
The exclusionary rule will not work here either because of United States v. Leon (1984), Arizona v. Evans, 514 U.S. 1, 115 S. Ct. 1185, 131 L. Ed. 2d 34 (1995), and Florida v. White, 526 U.S. 559, 119 S. Ct. 1555, 143 L. Ed. 2d 748 (1999). (See Calabresi, Guido. 2003. “The Exclusionary Rule.” Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy 26.)
The federal warrants served by the FBI are all legal because the involve separate statutes. These involve violation of 18 US Code 109A.2243 (Sexual abuse of children), 18 US Code 55.1201 (Kidnapping), 18 US Code 77.1201(a) (Trafficking in Persons), 18 US Code 13.242 (Deprivation of rights under color of law), 18 US Code 47.1071 (Concealing person from arrest), and 18 US Code 47.1073 (Flight to avoid prosecution or giving testimony). All of these warrants are going to stand up. Any evidence seized by federal authorities from an illegal search by state authorities under any of these warrants will also be admissible in federal prosecutions of either state officials or those upon whom the illegal searches were executed (See Florida v. White (1999).
A lot of these FLDS criminals are going to prisons, both Texas and Federal. About half of their offenses will be tried by administrative law judges - no chance of a jury trial here. Criminal trials by juries will probably get them longer sentences. No matter what, The adults taken into custody in the YFZ ranch arrests are facing long years in prison. Finally the children will get some justice.
30. Dr. D. E. Stevenson Says:
April 10, 2008 at 10:24 am
Just a word in defense of the Texas Child Protective Services (CPS) division of the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services (DFPS). I don’t work for the agency. I’am a retired entomologist living in Utah (46 years in Utah (1943-1988, 2006-2008), 19 in Texas (1988-2006)). Texas CPS is presently protecting more than 33,000 children from neglect, abandonment, abuse, exploitation and sometimes mortal danger.
They sometimes don’t arrive on time. One of the mandates by the Texas Family Code (5 TFC 261.004) is the annual Texas Child Fatality Review Teams Biennial Report. Texas has the longest running annual conference for child fatality review in the United States and each year welcomes people from across the nation to learn more about reducing the number of preventable child deaths.
Every year the review teams report about 3,592 child fatalities in Texas. On average, 10 children less than 18 years of age died every day. About half died violently. Violence, either self-inflicted or inflicted by another, remains a leading cause of death for young children and teens.
Each week, on average, five children die violently Texas. About 250 deaths are homicide, most resulting at the hands of parents or guardians. However, since the 78th Texas Legislature put more teeth into the Texas Family Code, child victims of homicide have decline more than 50 percent, from nearly 600 prior to 1999 to about 250 in 2005.
Other reports include child injuries. In 2003, more than 913,000 women were battered in domestic violence. That same year, more than 185,000 children were treated for injuries received in domestic violence incidents. The Texas Family code makes it a crime not to forward reports of domestic violence or abuse (5 TFC 261.109). It was when the report of domestic violence on the YFZ Ranch in Schleicher County Texas was forwarded to the proper authorities that local police and Texas Rangers entered the FLDS community. All of this was mandated by law (5 TFC 261.3011). It is a tribute to the Texas FCS that they stepped in before anyone suffered serious injury or death.
31. Elle Says:
April 10, 2008 at 5:02 pm
How about the women and children who are not educated beyond a second grade level? Who are locked away and held against their will? Where are their constitutional rights? I do believe in the freedom of religion but this did not included women and children being imprisoned mentally and physically. I support the government and their safe raid on this compound. Hopefully, they will be able to help these victims of the FLDS.
32. Dr. D. E. Stevenson, Ph.D. Says:
April 11, 2008 at 9:39 am
Great statement Elle! It is a tribute to Texas that the authorities had the fortitude and the legal authority to intervene on behalf of the women and children held captive by this cult.
33. Dr. Steve Evans, J.D. Says:
April 11, 2008 at 10:04 am
It’s a tribute to Texas that an Aggie with a Ph.D. calls himself “Dr.”
34. Dr. Steve Evans, J.D. Says:
April 11, 2008 at 10:12 am
All right, all right. That was just lame. But so is calling people criminals without evidence, charges, trials or convictions. Also lame is pretending to educate us all on Reynolds. Size up your audience, Doctor.
35. Christopher Says:
April 11, 2008 at 10:33 am
Dr. D.E. Stevenson, Ph.D.,
Your fancy title loses all credibility when you use sensationalistic and provocative language like your statement that these women and children are being “held captive by this cult.”
36. Guy Murray Says:
April 11, 2008 at 9:22 pm
Dr. D.E. Stevenson, Ph.D.
While I appreciate you leaving comments in this ongoing dialouge, I will insist that you no longer refer to the FLDS or any other religious movement, at least while commenting over here, as a “cult”. That is a religious, pornographic/obscene characterization, which I will edit from here on out.
Dr. Steve Evans, J.D. you crack me up.
37. Laura Williams Says:
April 12, 2008 at 6:45 pm
This sounds like another case of liberal, heavy handed social workers ripping children from their parents and asking questions later. Not a single charge has been made against these mothers, but look what is happening to them.
38. seen it before Says:
April 13, 2008 at 6:47 pm
The manner in which the children are being treated in the hands of the state is much worse than you can imagine. Notice for starters that they just took all cels away from the childrena nd are preventing contact with the mothers.
if you want to see proof of who is in charge of torturing those children now, look up Neil Brick and his Dale-Griffis cult and especially look up Bobbi Gagne who is one of the primary activists across a dozen sex-investigation agencies in Vernmont, Howard Dean land, nice secluded cult-like nursery of the people now in charge of terrorizing the children with demands that they accuse their parents of every crime imaginable.
It was said that one of the reasons for the wholesale exodus of the children was the “sight” of the pregnant teenagers.
I am in no way supporting FLDS, but it is from the frying pan to the fire for those children and their mothers.
Look at the screens at the new website thomwhitememorial.blogspot.com and you will see the connection of the Women’s Services to the psychopath group run by self-proclaimed “Manchurian Candidate” Neil Brick and you will wonder where First Baptist comes in, well follow the church trail out from the Neil Brick psychopath group into a whole number of pseudo-denominations designed to cover their tracks.
“Finally the children will get some justice”? I wish you were right, but the state will destroy them and let the men go on a variety of pleas, and they will flee even further into their cult to avoid the filthy cult that is the USA.
The media is not telling anyone that the women have NO civil rights in Texas. This IS a slave state. There is NO ERA here. Judges are elected, and the FLDS has voters.
Change the law to eradicate legal slavery from Texas and then the FLDS and its type of cult would not have a means to control the women in the first place.
39. D E Stevenson, PhD Says:
April 15, 2008 at 11:51 am
seen it before:
Outstanding comments. It is time for a joint federal and multi-state effort to stamp out the organizations that claim descent from Loren C. Wooley (self-appointed defender of religious polygamy), including the FLDS (formerly ), United Apostolic Brethren (Allred group), and United Order Cooperative (Kingston group). These are the largest (approximately 40,000 adherents) and most pernicious of the polygamous religious organizations. Without federal and multi-state actions with supporting changes in present legislation, these and similar organizations can continue to skip across state lines to commit actions patently illegal but seldom prosecuted.
Overkill In Eldorado Texas?
Posted by Guy Murray under FLDS, FLDS Texas Raid, Polygamy, Warren Jeffs | Tags: FLDS, FLDS Texas Raid, Polygamy, Warren Jeffs |
FLDS RaidThe FLDS Church is again making headlines, this time in Eldorado Texas, the latest FLDS compound. This is the biggest news splash since the Warren Jeffs’ conviction last year on charges of accomplice to rape. There are several MSM sources for this breaking story. (My Update posted here).
One of the better stories appears in the Salt Lake Tribune:
An investigation into whether a middle-aged man married a teenage girl has spurred child services agents in Texas to remove 52 girls from an FLDS compound there. Eighteen of the 52 girls have been taken into state custody. The rest are being interviewed away from the compound. The girls range in age from 6 months to 17 years of age.
A spokesman for the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services, Patrick Crimmins, said he did not know why the children were removed.
A search and arrest warrant shows Texas authorities are investigating whether 50-year-old Dale Barlow married and fathered a child with a 16-year-old polygamy.
Barlow is not new to criminal sexual abuse investigations, having previously pled no contest to conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor:
Barlow, 50, is a son of former Colorado City, Ariz., mayor Dan Barlow; he also was one of eight Colorado City men accused by Arizona prosecutors in 2005 of marrying underage girls and committing sex crimes.
He pleaded no contest in Superior Court in April 2007 to conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor, and a second charge was dropped. The victim was a 16-year-old girl with whom he had a son. He was later sentenced to 45 days in jail and three years on probation.
The Texas warrants, provided by the San Angelo Standard newspaper, allow police to arrest Barlow and seize records of his alleged marriage to the girl and records of a baby girl he may have fathered with the teenager. The baby is believed to be 8 months old, the warrant says. Barlow and the teenager are the only people named in the warrant. It’s unclear how an investigation into their relationship lead to the removal of 52 other girls.
Texas raid removes girls from FLDS compoundUnclear indeed how this type of investigation would result in the removal of 52 other girls. Either 52 girls were named in these warrants or criminal complaints, or someone has gone a little overboard in this investigation. I have not read anything in any of the media accounts that would suggest facts sufficient to support the wholesale removal of 52 other girls, or the armed response of the equivalent of a small army.
Certainly if there are facts supporting criminal allegations of child abuse, sexual abuse, or any other criminal violations, those facts should be thoroughly investigated, and prosecuted if warranted. I am a bit troubled by the investigation focusing on a middle aged man who allegedly married a minor, which results in the removal of some 52 other girls from the compound.
The Tribune also reported the investigation began as a result of claims of sexual abuse:
Questions at the ranch. At the Texas ranch, investigators interviewed children throughout the morning. Schleicher County Attorney Raymond Loomis said a girl’s accusation that she was sexually abused triggered the raid, which began about 5:30 p.m. on Thursday. “Some girl at the compound called the sheriff’s office and said she was being abused,” Loomis told The Salt Lake Tribune.
This version is contradicted by reports out of a San Angelo Texas newspaper:
Earlier today, Meisner confirmed that CPS responded to a complaint, but officials at the scene could not say whether the complaint was made from within or outside the ranch. A DPS spokesman declined to say how many people were being interviewed, or how many officers were involved.
Schleicher County Justice of the Peace James C. Doyle dismissed reports appearing in Utah newspapers that a specific allegation of sexual abuse triggered the complaint, calling it “hearsay” - one of several rumors circulating around Eldorado and repeated by another Schleicher County official.
Also troubling is the fact that these arrest and search warrants have apparently not yet been publicly released:
The warrants, signed by Tom Green County District Judge Barbara Walther, and the affidavits filed with them have not been released pending a decision on whether they can or should be made public, a court administrator said.
I have looked, and not yet found the actual search and arrest warrants, which I will post, if I can find them. Other good media sources for this story include:
(Update 4/5/08 7:30 a.m.) This morning’s Deseret News reports that 167 children have been removed from the FLDS compound in Texas. This seems like an astounding number. If there were evidence sufficient for the state of Texas to remove 167 children from their homes, where did it come from, and what is it? If there is that much evidence of child and sexual abuse, why did it take this long for Texas to raid this compound? This story gets more bizzare as it develops.
(Further Update 4/5/08 8:00 a.m.) A new Salt Lake Tribune story reports that a Texas judge has now ordered the removal of all FLDS children, boys and girls, under age 18, from the FLDS compound.
For other bloggernacle discussion see Matt B’s post over a Mormon Mentality. Also, BIV has a good post as well over at Hieing to Kolob.
USA Today
The Eldorado Success
Star Telegram
Deseret News
Salt Lake Tribune (On why the raid may do more harm than good)
CNN
The worst captioned story belongs, not surprisingly to the New York Times, which contains the egregious error of describing the FLDS Church as a “Mormon” sect, which is of course just sloppy reporting.
39 Responses to “Overkill In Eldorado Texas?”
1. Nick Literski Says:
April 5, 2008 at 8:10 am
167 children? Fascinating, given that yesterday’s news reports only estimated 200 residents of the YFZ Ranch. It makes me wonder what percentage of children on the ranch (or at least what percentage of female children?) that represents.
The whole thing has shades of Short Creek, except that the fathers haven’t all been rounded up and arrested yet. With yesterday’s motivation claim (young girl calling in, claiming she was being sexually abused) now being denied, you have to wonder who made the supposed “complaint,” and how many child “protection” service workers were just chomping at the bit to “rescue” all the children from their families.
2. mondo cool Says:
April 5, 2008 at 9:29 am
Wonder if the fact that two “First Baptist Church of Eldorado” buses were used to remove the children means anything?
3. Guy Murray Says:
April 5, 2008 at 11:54 am
Nick and Mondo,
Yeah, this is a fascinating story. Watching it unfold will be an interesting endeavor. Perhaps there is evidence to support such a wide ranging investigation/raid. Time will tell. I thought the same thing about the Baptist connection here. I don’t know the answer to be truthful.
Thanks for your thoughts.
4. Jeff Day Says:
April 5, 2008 at 2:57 pm
One site I read said the children taken were ranging from 6 months old and up. I am absolutely shocked and offended that anyone would take 6 month old children (and even older ones) away from their homes without disclosing to the public the reasoning behind it. This compound is a religious group, and while their understanding of marriage may be different than some, I believe them for the most part to be dedicated people of high moral standards. I cannot believe that these children would be taken away without their mothers (and father or fathers), and I refuse to believe that the entire group of parents would be “dangerous” enough to warrant this removal.
Until I hear news justifying this, my personal sympathy for this group of polygamists is going way up.
BTW: Nick Literski, could you please email me? I am afraid my email sent about 6 months ago and another more recently didn’t get through to you.
5. Liza Says:
April 6, 2008 at 12:26 am
“I could hardly breathe, just knowing what these woman & children had to go thru”! But, not only that, knowing that my parents live in Sonora, Texas. God is good, and Justice shall be done.
6. Liza Says:
April 6, 2008 at 12:31 am
To modo cool-
after entering my comment. I went back to read all others. (As for the Baptist- God Forbid You Are Wrong)!
7. jes Says:
April 6, 2008 at 5:37 am
To Jeff Day
Would you leave a 6 mos old in the hands of a meth dealer? Do you condone the sexual abuse of children in the name of God? Do you believe the sexual abuse of children represents ‘high moral standards?
These people are accused of criminal activity and their children should be removed, especially if the crimes involve the abuse of their children. This is not marriage. That is between consenting ADULTS.
8. JMOEM Says:
April 6, 2008 at 8:31 pm
Has anyone been to Hildale/Colorado City and seen the look of fear in the eyes of the women and children that live there when they see a stranger in town? I have it it’s a very sad thing to see in these United States. Those eyes show fear and curiosity. Their mental state is plain to see. Should you try talking to them they will look to see if anyone is watching and then hurry off. It is like visiting the “Twilight Zone” right here in America.
9. Jane Says:
April 7, 2008 at 10:24 am
The children were taken in voluntary accompaniment of their female adult relatives, including their mothers if their mothers chose to go. Most of the mothers had been forced into marriage to strangers or relatives at a young age and did not have the freedom to come and go as they pleased and as is mandated under U.S. law. They are prisoners of the FLDS men. Until you get these women and children away from the men, and the women came choicefully, they are not free to speak without fear for their safety and future freedom and without fear for the safety and freedom of their children. The six-month olds in some cases were likely children of teenaged children who had been forced to marry older men. Would you take the underaged mothers for questioning and examination of their mental and physical health and leave their infants behind? The leaders of this cult put the women and children in this position, and I guarantee that though they are afraid, some will hope to escape and live in freedom, freedom to live and worship freely according to their conscience and their choice, free to marry who they will and to raise their children safely according to their conscience and not according to fear.
10. Jane Says:
April 7, 2008 at 10:57 am
If the FLDS guards had complied with the law and produced the girl in the first place, they would not necessarily have exposed all the community to the search and questioning. As it was, eighteen girls were deemed to have been abused or in imminent danger of being abused. I wonder how many of those are child brides, possibly pregnant or with small children already.
11. G Haskins Says:
April 7, 2008 at 12:52 pm
Something doesn’t add up here… They estimate between 300 - 400 people at the compound. Of that number, about 200 children have been removed. That leaves 100-200 adults? Now if each man is said to have multiple wives, how many of that remaining 100 or 200 people could be men? Maybe 50 or so? So now how is it that 50 men could build an entire city, complete with a utilities infrastructure, not to mention a temple as well, and still have any time left for low and filthy habits of sexual abuse against young girls?
12. D Stevenson Says:
April 7, 2008 at 2:02 pm
The rescue of more than 400 children to date from the FLDS compound in Schleicher County (El Dorado), Texas, is considerably ovedue. There are only a handful of men. Most of the construction on the ‘child abuse temple’ is done by male children, who are employed as a mobile, expendible labor force. The women now in a shelter should be arrested on violations of Chapters 20 (Kidnappping and unlawful restraint), 20A (Trafficking of Persons), 21 (Sexual Offenses) and 25 (Offenses against the Family) of the Texas Penal Code. More than half of the children, particularly the male children have no parents present in Schleicher or Tom Green County (San Angelo), Texas. They have been brought in as part of a “forced labor” (TPC 20A.01 (1) group to work in the compound. In all likelihood they were tranported across state lines in violation of Federal law. The so-called FLDS Church is not a religious organization in any sense of the word. It is a criminal organization. Its women are the glue that holds the organization together. Not only should the children be placed permanently in good Christian foster homes in Texas. The women involved should be prosecuted for their role in the exploitation and abuse of these children. They are the persons directly responsible for the abuse.
13. Al Says:
April 7, 2008 at 2:32 pm
My opinion is that all these women and children were removed to assure their safety during search, (nobody wants another Waco incident), and all court dates postponed until there is enough evidence for next legal steps.
Believing and practicing religion are two different things.
Only fundamentalists have need to “shield” their members from outside world, and it’s not hard to figure out why.
My issue is this double standard those FLDS members are imposing at other people. The “wicked” people from outside are evil, according to their teaching, but their working and business opportunities, as well as the social security checks (they all are getting and turning in, instead using them for its purpose)…..are good and not poisoned??
Just imagine that all churches build nice tall walls around their properties and members keep their children home schooling by barely literate mothers…. what would happen next?
14. Christopher Says:
April 7, 2008 at 4:43 pm
The response by authorities to a rumored phone call from a girl without a name that no one can locate is a terrible and scary indictment of the justice and legal system in Texas. I don’t see how that justifies taking 400+ children from their homes under the pretense that they appear “to have been abused or in imminent danger of being abused” (a terribly ambiguous notion in and of itself).
There’s too much that doesn’t add up here. Based on the evidence to this point, it seems to me that the most reasonable explanation is that either (a) no phone call was ever placed, or (b) the phone call was from a phony person.
By no means am I defending abuse or exploitation of children, but I don’t see enough hard evidence to convince me that that’s going on here.
15. Joseph Says:
April 7, 2008 at 4:45 pm
CPS has a right and is bound by law to take these kids if they notice any problems.. Maybe locals have grown cold and approve of this sick behavior but the real world is not going to stand by and watch these filthy old men use the kids for there own wishes get a life this is 21st century.
16. Steve 45 Says:
April 7, 2008 at 4:55 pm
Lots of gossip & opinion above, but how much fact?
From about 1960-1963, when growing up in California as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, one of my best friends was a boy named Steven (”Steve” ;) Michael Murphy, oldest son of James B. (native of Milwaukee, WI) and Roxie Hawkins Murphy (of Safford, AZ). This couple had other children: Kim, Terry and Shawn Michael. Kim married Dick Young (prominent attorney), and they live in Littleton, CO. I believe Terry and Shawn, both married, live in the Salt Lake Valley. These families are/were all active in the L.D.S. Church the last I heard, except for Steve.
As a teenager, I spent nearly every afternoon at the Murphy home in Santa Clara with other friends lifting weights, playing ping-pong, just having good clean fun.
At 19, Steve went on an L.D.S. mission to The Netherlands. His mission president was Alvin R. Dyer, and I always wondered how it changed his life. I was at BYU when he returned. We soon became roommates. By changed life, I mean he had different behaviors than I’d ever seen before in any L.D.S. person. The most noticeable was that he would always keep his head bowed for another 10-20 seconds following the close of a simple blessing on food, or any other prayer. In a way, I guess I still respected him for this, yet I wondered. BYU is a haven for dating, and he did get right into that. However, his dating was restricted to reading the scriptures with any girl he took out. Really different. I often wondered how different girls responded. Most Mormons read and study scriptures, but this was extreme.
I’d guess, in about 1968, Steve married a young woman named Vicki (can’t recall her maiden name) from Virginia who lived across the street from our apartments. She was full of life, a relatively new convert to the Church. Later, I moved into a house in a nearby neighborhood, and discovered that they lived just a few doors down, so we continued our friendship.
In 1972, after marrying, I finished a masters degree. My wife and I moved to California. A couple of weekends later, I flew back to Utah for my thesis defense, and stayed with them in Salt Lake City for a few days. While in their home, Steve introduced me to a series of John Birch Society tapes about the New World Order, how an evil secret global leftist society of elitists (Kennedys, Rothschilds, etc.) was going to take us over with a one-world government. I must admit that it was quite impressionable.
A few years later, when my family and I were traveling through Utah, we stopped to see them again, this time in Sandy, Utah. They had no children, and were living with another family. I thought that was a little odd, but people do find different living accommodations. During a long late evening walk, Steve told me that the L.D.S. Church was going through a great transition, that there would be a great divide among its membership soon.
The next year, I was passing through the Denver Airport and stopped to phone his sister Kim. With great emotion, she explained that at the time we’d visited them in Sandy, he was already practicing polygamy. Hence, the other family they were living with. She said he had at that time already been excommunicated from the Mormon Church. He was a youth seminary teacher in North Salt Lake City, and had tried to talk a girl in his class into marrying him in polygamy. She also said that he’d taken his several families into the Wasatch Mountains to live, that he was then a private school principal, and that they lived on a goat farm. She said that the whole deal had ripped her extended family apart. In years later, Kim wrote to say that Steve and Vicki had divorced.
In 1984, I passed through Salt Lake City again. I couldn’t find Steve’s phone number in the directory, but found his brother, Terry’s and phoned him. He seemed very reluctant to even talk with me, and outright refused to give me Steve’s phone number. I suggested I give my number to him so he could have Steve phone me. In a few moments, my phone rang, and Steve drove up to the front of the L.D.S. Church office building shortly thereafter, the last time I saw him. As we rode around together for the ensuing 4 hours, we talked about everything.
I know Steve is a very religious person, in word and deed. I’m certain he practically has the scriptures memorized. He explained that his group had their own temple activity. As far as he was concerned, his organization (not sure it had a name) was many steps above the (evil) Mormon Church, and that God was leading his church.
A few years ago, through another friend, I got an e-mail address for Steve’s father, Jim who lived in/near Nephi, Utah with wife Roxie. He explained that Steve and families then lived in Nevada (where polygamy is/was apparently legal), and often secretly visited his parents in Nephi. I haven’t had communication with any of these folks for the past 15-20 years.
I know these people are very good people. The kid was my best friend when we were teenagers. I have no idea if Steve is involved with the Jeffs group, but have been curious. He just really took a strange leap, I thought. Certainly nothing to do with my church today.
17. Richard 59 Says:
April 7, 2008 at 6:37 pm
The LDS church is probably the most family oriented church in existense today albeit they really do have a very strange belief system. The FLDS on the other hand are no better than the Fundamental extreme muslims that breed terrorism throughout thw worls. FLDS , I think, should be considered domestic trerrorists and delat with accordingly. The bible I read does not defend nor preach such criminal acts as these people have done to their OWN women and children.
The LDS need to stand up and condemn these criminal acts.
18. Shannon 41 Says:
April 7, 2008 at 8:24 pm
God bless those innocent children and may the rest of your community band together to help ANY child, regardless of religion, if they are in need. If I can help support one, or several children and their mothers through this ordeal I will do just that.
Let’s hope that the long arm of the law puts an end to public abuse of women and children.
Regards,
Shannon 41 - former long time resident of Creston B.C. Canada (home of Bountiful colony)
19. GMcDaniel Says:
April 7, 2008 at 9:00 pm
Due to meth abuse, the CPS system in the state of Texas is so overworked and underpaid that is unreasonable to believe the CPS workers were dying to go anywhere and take on 400 new cases. I lived in San Angelo for 20 years and worked for an agency that had to work with CPS on many cases and know that in my dealings with the CPS employees they tried to be fair and get all the facts before making decisions about removing children. They had to have a court order to remove anyone and the judge had to believe there was grounds for removal. In order for CPS to remove anyone, there would need to be statements made by the victims or the victims’ mother about abuse or neglect or the threat of imminent danger. Because juvenile cases are not open to the public, we will never know the details of the cases, nor should we. Why we as Americans believe we have the right to know everything, is amazing to me. If it were my child or family members, I would want the rest of the world to take a hike and leave us alone. We need to not keep victimizing these people by insisting we need to know the whole story. Since the women were taken with the children, the children are with people they know and trust. The news clips I have seen of the children outside playing at the church and or community center showed children acting like children. They did not seem to be too fearful to play. Have any of you considered the amount of foster homes that will be needed to house all of these children? When I moved away from there last summer, they were in dire need of foster homes. I have no reason to believe that there is an abundance of them at this time. Especially not to house that many children.
If you have ever worked for a state agency you would not believe any other state agency would want to have to process the paperwork for 400 cases that were not legitimate.It will be a paperwork nightmare for all involved.
It also seems that many have not considered that if they are practicing polygamy, it is against the law. If the teen age girls were forced into marriages and were raped, that is illegal, too. The only safe way to sort this out would be to have them moved to a location where they were not with possible abusers.
I do have concerns about why any legitimate group, religious or otherwise, would need to guard their place with assault weapons and night vision goggles. I have personally seen guards at the gate of the compound with weapons while traveling past it to complete a home visit. Were they trying to keep the public out or the people in? All other churches I know of, seek those in need and welcome them into their temples or churches. When we start keeping people in or out at gunpoint, one would have to wonder why.
The comment about the Baptist Church buses being used was rather interesting. If you had ever been to Eldorado, you would realize that there were not alot of options for transporting that many people, anywhere. There were not alot of options about where to put that many people, either. They could have used school buses, if they could find whoever was in charge of them when the police and CPS called to find transportation. I assume since they had already contacted the church about taking the people in, it only makes sense the church would volunteer the buses, too or vice versa. I know many people in Eldorado, they are just good old West Texas people for the most part. I know rich ones, poor ones, nosey ones and private ones, religous ones and some that probably never graced the doors of a church but when called upon to help out, they would all do so in a heart beat. I have watched them pull together and help one another on many occasions and am not surprised they were doing what they could to help. Some of you seem to think this a huge conspiracy but the mere logistical problems of feeding and sheltering that many people in a town that size is a daunting one. If you are not from a small town that does not even have a fast food place unless you count the grill inside the convenience store, you cannot imagine the task and expense of feeding 450 people three meals a day plus taking care of your own. When you decide to go offer assistance in one of these situations, then you might have a whole different perspective of what has gone on in the West Texas town of Eldorado. If we find out they over reacted, well so what? How many times do we have to read that CPS left a child or children in a home and then they were killed for people to understand it is better to remove the children while sorting through the details then leaving them to be whisked off in the middle of the night to continue being abused. Being removed from their home for a few days is not nearly as detrimental to a child as being left in the situation by the ones you hoped would save you. By the way, if the 50 year old has done nothing wrong, why has he not turned himself in?
20. From Bad To Worse in The West Texas Town of Eldorado « Messenger and Advocate Says:
April 7, 2008 at 9:55 pm
[...] and disrupted their family life, keeping the mothers and the children from their fathers: (previous FLDS raid post) The children are being kept at a temporary shelter at historic Fort Concho in nearby San Angelo [...]
21. Faye M. Says:
April 7, 2008 at 11:06 pm
The last post indicated this person has much more knowledge of the Texas CPS system than most. All need to be aware of Texas Family Code laws governing CPS actions to understand what is happening. And has the law has required, now a Court has heard evidence and has removed all the children based on that evidence. CPS has to quickly appear in Court and the Court rules.
22. W, A, Summers Says:
April 8, 2008 at 1:27 pm
04-08-2008
I’m beginning to sense why many folks give up on
the daily hard copy media and come online for what
facts and reason they can find regarding a story.
I am dismayed 300% by the “lap dog” quality of the
journalism in the Houston Chronicle and the Austin
Statesman American. On the surface one wonders if
the Duke Lacross rape story looked about this way
when it was initially deemed front-page worthy. I am more scared to a wayward State of Texas than of an
eccentric group of “other worlders”.
23. Tossed to and Fro Says:
April 8, 2008 at 1:32 pm
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/21073/flds-polygamous-sect
Above is link you might be interested in. Some intriguing videos as well.
24. Schumacher Says:
April 8, 2008 at 8:56 pm
Wichita, KS Oops made a mistake on KAKE 10 a couple of days ago and called them a ‘militia’. Could the demonization have begun? Like they did at Waco. I think the lawyers should pull up all the video this station ran and find that. I believe what is going on is a real ugly matter and all of the hurt these people are facing is absolutely horrible. My prayers are with them and my anger burns inside for how authorities are handling a simple call of what they say is due to one man. But I’m also glad I don’t have many more years left to witness this kind of evil much anymore.
25. Dr. D. E. Stevenson, Ph.D. Says:
April 8, 2008 at 10:37 pm
It is a tribute to Texas that they had the courage to do what Utah, Arizona, Nevada and other western states have been afraid to do. They raided the FLDS ranch in Schleicher County and arrested the leaders. Now they need to arrest at least some of the women. Many are just as bad as the men.
The smartest thing Texas CPS and law enforcement could do was to get the children and adult females out of Schleicher County, where the County Sheriff, Sheriff David Doran (Phone: 325-853-2737), sympathizes with the FLDS cult leaders. The next thing they need to do is get the children placed with permanent foster parents all over Texas.
The women who went to the shelter with the children must be separated from the children. The children must be sent to different parts of Texas, and the women, particularly the children’s mothers must never be allowed to see them again before their 18th birthdays. Mothers less than 18 must be placed in foster care without their children. Mothers older than 18 must be taken into custody and their children removed from them.
Senior adult females must be prosecuted for child endangerment (5 TPC 22.041) and child abuse (5 TPC 22.04). They contribute to the abuse as much as the males in this cult. Females over 18 and under 25 should be placed in protective custody as material witnesses. They should then be placed in shelters for abused and battered women and required to receive counseling to help them overcome many years of mental, physical and sexual abuse. Many were married as young as 12 and most were married before age 15.
Too many people see the women in the FLDS cult as victims of the men who ostensibly run the cult. To some degree this is true. However, by the time they have reached the age of 25, most have been married for more than 10 years. By this time they have participated in the physical, mental and sexual abuse of their own children. By the time they are 30, most have consented to father-daughter incest and the forced marriage of their daughters to other males in the cult.
When their husbands are absent, the FLDS women are the glue that holds the cult together. They are the ones that brain wash the children. When a husband has 10 to 15 wives, he can only be in the home about once a month. Most of the damage in these families is done by the women. When the men are imprisoned or have to go into hiding outside the community or outside the country, the women hold the community together.
I first became aware of what is now the FLDS polygamist cult in 1975, about 13 years before moving to Texas to work for the Texas Agricultural Extension Service. At that time I was working as a field Agronomist and Entomologist for the Intermountain Farmers Association (IFA) Co-op, a large interstate farmers Cooperative with its headquarters in Salt Lake City, UT. In March of 1975, I was introduced to LeRoy Johnson, the leader of the polygamist cult known as the Council of Friends. This cult later became the FLDS, which bought the ranch that was recently raided in Schleicher County (El Dorado), TX.
At that time, he maintained several households in different parts of Arizona, Utah and Wyoming. I first met him in Manti, Utah, but I did most of my business with him in Colorado City, Arizona. I never knew his first name until I heard his death announced in 1986. I only knew him as “Brother Johnson.” From 1975 until 1986, I sold fertilizer, seed, pesticides and other farm supplies to him and other members of this cult.
It is true that the cult members are leery of outsiders, particularly those whom they have not met before. However, it is untrue that they regard all outsiders as agents of Satan. I have remained on good terms with many of the men and some of their wives and children from that time. I also saw much of the abuse produced by this and two other large polygamous cults in Utah.
The women of the cult usually acted as a front and as a shield for the men, who were far more paranoid about outside contacts. When I received word that “Brother Johnson” wanted to see me about one of his farms, I would drive to the IFA branch in St. George, Utah. There, I would call his telephone number. A woman would answer, and I would leave a message that I would be in that area for the day. A few minutes later, the telephone would ring and “Brother Johnson” would tell me some isolated place to meet him. There we would conduct our business.
It was during this time that I discovered how much the women of the cult were involved. It should have been intuitive after the 1944 and 1953 arrest and imprisonment of the male adherents to the cult. The women held the cult together until their mates were out of prison. In all business with Johnson and others, I usually had to go through a wife or daughter.
I also discovered that it was often the wives of the male adherents to the cult that recruited other men and women. The women usually broached the subject to wives they considered prime candidates for their husband. When this did not yield results, they then appealed to the husband and his wife together.
Household goods were usually purchased by women. A shopping group would often come to town with an older woman leading the group with two teenage wives and a number of older children of both sexes to help carry items to the car or pickup truck to carry them home. The older wives were dependable senior members of the cult and would prevent runaways. The teenage wives always left their infants behind, which was effective in preventing escapes.
It was in 1978, when I found out about the forced marriages of 12 to 15 year old girls. In April of that year, 16 year old Jeff Carlisle appeared on the streets of my home town. He appeared lost and was picked up by the police. He informed them that he was the oldest son of a local polygamist farmer named Elmo Carlisle. He had run away from home because he was about to be married to four girls from Colorado City, AZ. He was placed in foster care and was not allowed to return to his parents. He did not return to the polygamists after he finished high school and now enjoys a comparatively normal life.
However, the affair did not end there. The following spring, in May of 1979, while delivering corn seed to the Carlisle farm, I was met by Elmo and Jeff’s younger brother. Elmo had his son help me unload the corn seed and informed me that his son had married the girls intended for Jeff. Elmo pointed to four single wide trailer houses and said that they were the homes of his son’s new wives. While we were putting the corn seed away, a girl that appeared to be 12 or 13 years old poked her head out of one of the mobile homes and called to Jeff’s brother. He hung his head and turned and walked toward the trailer with all the appearance of a whipped dog. It was then I saw the effect of these child marriages on everyone involved.
Through Johnson’s time, most families held their own property, ran their own farms and businesses, and paid their own taxes. After Johnson’s death, the entire personality of the cult changed with Rulon Jeffs’ seizure of power in 1986. He changed the name of the cult from the Council of Friends to FLDS. After registering it as a church, he consolidated all privately held properties under the church’s corporate authority with him as president. Jeffs refused to recognize government authority or to pay taxes. Many properties outside the area of Colorado City, AZ, were lost to tax auctions. The Carlisle farm was auctioned in 1988, and the Carlisles were thrown onto the road. I moved to Texas for the next 20 years. Now that I have retired and returned home, no one appears to know what became of them.
Rulon Jeffs was secretive, incestuous and paranoid. It was during this time that Jeffs began isolating the group from outsiders. After 1987, they began to teach members that outsiders were all agents of Satan, and that contact with persons outside the group was a sin. Serious physical, mental and sexual abuse of wives and children began at this time. Increasing accounts of incest began at about the same time.
In March, 1985, while working as the Utah Sales Manager for Snake River Chemical, Inc., a branch of United Agri-Products, Inc., then a subsidiary of Con-Agra Corp., I was looking for a warehouse. I contacted a realtor about a building in Orem, UT. When I went to inspect the building, I was met by a woman who showed the building. She made arrangements for me to meet the building’s owner, J. O. Kingston. His office was on the second floor of a dilapidated building that had a biker bar on the ground floor. He was a fidgety little man who appeared suspicious of everything. We could not come to an agreement, and only later I found out that he was the notorious leader of the Kingston polygamy group who was under indictment for more than 170 counts of welfare fraud.
The group led by J. O. Kingston was probably the most notorious for its incest practices. Male members married cousins, nieces, sisters and daughters to produce hundreds of children. Kingston’s offspring were used primarily as disposable labor. In the CO-OP Coal Mine in Huntington Canyon, Emory County, Utah, children were used as mine labor to produce coal, which was sold in a coal yard in Sandy, Salt Lake County, Utah. When a children were killed in mine accidents, they were buried in the slack pile. When the Emory County Sheriff investigated reports of these accidents, the slack pile caught fire. It is still burning to this day.
Rulon Jeffs took a leaf out of the Kingston’s book, when he began to use surplus male children as a mobile, disposable labor force. Male children between the ages of 8 and 18 are used in construction and mining projects. By this time their sisters are actively engaged in sexual activities with their fathers or are married to older men. If males are lost or run away from forced labor projects, the ratio of males to females declines in favor of the polygamous practices of the cult.
These are the children of the Schleicher County FLDS compound. If there is any justice, they will be taken away from their mothers and put in decent foster homes until they are 18. The mothers under 18 should likewise be placed in foster care and given serious counseling. The women under 25, who were forced into marriage and were victims of incest should be placed in shelters apart from each other and treated for the mental trauma of their ordeal. Older, senior “wives” should be prosecuted and given sentences equal to or greater than their husbands, because they are the glue that hold this cult together. Without them, it couldn’t exist.
26. Skeptic Says:
April 8, 2008 at 11:25 pm
The demonization sounds much the same as the Waco tragedy. The Waco debacle started as a gun case and ended with all of the Davidians being demonized as monsters. Any time I see elaborate justifications and demonization occurring I am skeptical.
The original warrant is the keystone of the entry so the authorities must locate the caller if they expect the case to survive. The state has attempted to develop a second warrant after the initial entry, so I would surmise they have doubts about the original claims. The second warrant will not survive if the initial complaint is proven to be unfounded.
There will be a powerful case against the state here due to the sweeping nature of the removal. The state has removed 100% of the children which strikes at the heart of the religion itself, making the move unconstitutional. The order will more than likely be quashed due to the sweeping nature of the removal.
I do not know anything about this religion and am not very interested learning about it. This case will become a major federal challenge on constitutional grounds. Many errors have occurred and the authorities will be forced to address them tomorrow when the church files to quash the original warrant in San Angelo.
If abuse is occurring it must be addressed, however the way it has been addressed here is not acceptable under our constitution. The laws of the land are for everyone, even those who society hates. I know activists hate our constitution; however the difficulties of this case must be addressed properly.
1st Amendment
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
27. Dr. D. E. Stevenson, Ph.D. Says:
April 9, 2008 at 9:28 am
The arrest of the criminals at the YFZ Ranch in Schleicher County, TX, and actions to rescue their victims has nothing to do with “free exercise” of religion. It has everything to do with the enforcement of constitutional laws.
The First Amendment does not apply to the authority of Texas to arrest religious polygamists or take their children away from them. The First Amendment issues surrounding State and Federal sovergnty over the religious actions of citizens was decided exactly 130 years ago in the case of Reynolds v. United States.
Reynolds v. United States, 98 U.S. 145, 25 L. Ed. 244 (1878), was a Supreme Court of the United States decision that held that religious duty was not a suitable defense to a criminal indictment. George Reynolds was a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, charged with violation of the Morrill Anti Bigamy Act of 1862 (5352 Revised Statutes, now 8 US Code 1154 and 18 US Code 633) after marrying Amelia Jane Schofield while still married to Mary Ann Tuddenham.
Reynolds primary argument was that the act was unconstitutional and violated his right to free exercise of religion under the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. Reynolds had argued that as a Mormon, it was his religious duty as a male member of the church to practice polygamy. The Supreme Court held that he was entitled to his religious opinion, but in knowingly violating US laws, his acts were punishable under that code.
The opinion, written by Chief Justice Morrison Waite, was unanimous and was joined by Justices Nathan Clifford, Noah Haynes Swayne, Samuel Freeman Miller, William Strong, Joseph Philo Bradley, Ward Hunt and John Marshall Harlan, with Justice Stephen Johnson Field writing a concurring opinion. Such unanimous decisions have never been overturned.
The opinion stated: “The freedom to act is conditional and relative and Congress may prescribe and enforce certain conditions to control conduct which may be contrary to a person’s religious beliefs in the interest of the public welfare and protection of society. Laws are made for the government of actions, and while they cannot interfere with mere religious belief and opinions, they may with practices.” (98 U.S. at 167.)
The Supreme Court recognized that under the First Amendment, the Congress cannot pass a law that prohibits the free exercise of religion. However it argued that the law prohibiting bigamy did not fall under this.
Although the constitution did not define religion, the Court investigated the history of religious freedom in the United States. In the ruling, the court quoted Thomas Jefferson’s Danbury letter, in which he stated that there was a distinction between religious belief and action that flowed from religious belief. The former “lies solely between man and his God,” therefore “the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions.”
The court argued that if we allowed polygamy, how long before someone argued that human sacrifice was a necessary part of their religion. The Court recognized that religious practice could not be accepted as justification for an overt criminal act; that to permit a man to excuse his unlawful practices because of his religious belief “would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land, and in effect to permit every citizen to become a law unto himself. Government could exist only in name under such circumstances.” (98 U.S. 167)
The Court believed the true spirit of the First Amendment was that Congress could not legislate against opinion but could legislate against action.
The criminals in the FLDS cult should and must be prosecuted for their crimes under the Texas Penal Code, other Texas Statutes and the U.S. Code. Their victims should receive all the aid and protection afforded by the U.S. and Texas Constitutions and Texas State Codes.
28. Skeptic Says:
April 9, 2008 at 11:03 am
The search warrants will be the issue here not polygamy. Allowing hatred of these people to cloud legal judgment is not wise. The courts will be the arbitrator in this case. I have seen a lot of legal debate on this subject over the last few days and I have yet to see a single attorney agree with how this warrant was executed. I had never heard of this religion until a few days ago and do not agree with the religion they practice. This is a legal battle that will be resolved in the courts not on blogs where passion overtakes judgment.
If the search warrant used is based on false information to achieve a result it will be quashed. If the allegations are proven and the warrant is upheld the reach of the warrant will to be adjudicated. I do not make judgments on the religious nature of the church; I am concerned about the techniques used to achieve the end result. Activists are quick to toss freedoms in the garbage when they feel they have the only answer. Americans must always be diligent and keep everyone involved in cases like this honest.
Religion is going to be the centerpiece because the authorities made a sweeping accusation that applies to the entire organization instead of a thorough case by case adjudication of each case. Argument based on emotion not law is a very unstable philosophy. If abuses occurred they must be prosecuted according to Texas state law. The Supreme Court Reynolds v. United States case is based on a single litigant not an entire organization and that is a very important legal distinction. The reach of the warrant has entered new territory and the courts will be the final arbiter in this case. We will not see the final result of this action for many years.
The Supreme Court Reynolds v. United States:
The version of Jefferson’s Danbury letter which the Court used in Reynolds v. United States was in fact a mistaken transcription. While the Court quoted Jefferson as writing, “the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions”, Jefferson’s original handwriting reads “the legitimate powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions.”
29. Dr. D. E. Stevenosn, Ph.D. Says:
April 9, 2008 at 5:36 pm
The U.S. Supreme Court’s transcription of Jefferson’s Danbury letter used in Reynolds v. United States was in fact a mistaken transcription, but it was not a misreading. The decision, however biased and prejudiced against the Mormons, is now law. And it is based on the actual read of “the legitimate powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions.”
If religion is the centerpiece, then the FLDS criminals have lost already. More than a dozen precedents in the US Supreme Court go against religion as a defense of criminal activities. The defense has to be the narrowness of the warrant, which concerned a Jane Doe allegation of specific abuse. The warrant has not yet yielded specific evidence brought by the allegation. What it has yielded is evidence of a much larger, organized criminal activity. This evidence may be thrown out if the warrants came as a result of prejudice against the religious practices, previous criminal activity and other bad actions of the defendants.
This may let many of the senior and elderly women on the YFZ ranch off. Both of the men will go to prison for between two and five years. The two men both committed violations of the Texas Penal Code (TPC) for which juries in Texas always convict. These are resisting search (8 TPC 38.03), interference with an officer in the performance of his duty (8 TPC 38.15), and tampering with evidence (8 TPC 37.09). Each offense carries a mandatory minimum of 5 years in prison. These boys are going to be in Huntsville for a long time.
As far as the warrants are concerned, the Texas Code of Criminal Procedure (CCP) is one of the most liberal in the country. In all likelihood, the original warrant, naming Dale Barlow, will be quashed due to confusion in allegations to a specific offender. However, any evidence collected under it will not be subject to the exclusionary rule because of the “good faith” of the courts and officers issuing and executing the warrant (See Arizona v. Leon (1984). The second warrant issued under 1 CCP 18.021 to collect evidence of an injured child will be upheld because it was not only a “good faith” result of a report of child abuse, it was issued in good faith following a lawful report under Title 5 of the Texas Family Code (5 TFC 261.109 (a)). The exclusionary rule does not apply.
Under 5 TFC 261.109(a), “A person commits an offense if the person has cause to believe that a child’s physical or mental health or welfare has been or may be adversely affected by abuse or neglect and knowingly fails to report as provided in this chapter (Chapter 261).”
There is no way that the person receiving the call could legally ignore or refuse to report it. Warrants issued on that basis will not only be upheld, but all evidence collected pursuant to the warrant will be admissible in court.
The 16 year old girl making the call, however, has been identified (name of minors withheld by law) and is the two-year bride of Dale J. Barlow, a 50 year old cousin of Dale Barlow of Colorado City, AZ, convicted in Utah and Arizona of the rape of a child.
Texas authorities had no way of knowing this, and although the girl’s identity, and the correct identity of her husband, is “common knowledge” in Colorado City, AZ, and Hildale, UT, it is not generally know outside the two communities. It is unlikely that evidence of a criminal nature obtained in “good faith” in the search of the YFZ ranch will be declared “fruit of the poisoned tree.”
Under 1 CCP 18.021(a), “A search warrant may be issued to search for and photograph a child who is alleged to be the victim of the offenses of injury to a child as prohibited by Section 22.04, Penal Code; sexual assault of a child as prohibited by Section 22.011(a), Penal Code; aggravated sexual assault of a child as prohibited by Section 22.021, Penal Code; or continuous sexual abuse of young child or children as prohibited by Section 21.02, Penal Code.”
Under 1 CCP 18.10, the evidence obtained under an illegal warrant will still be admissible at trial, and the spousal privilege of so-called “plural wives” not to be called as a witness for the state “does not apply in any proceeding in which the person is charged with: (1) a crime committed against the person’s spouse, a minor child, or a member of the household of either spouse; or (2) an offense under Section 25.01, Penal Code (Bigamy).” Not only this, but under 1 CCP 38.072, hearsay evidence is admissible in the prosecution of crimes against minor children under the age of 12.
The exclusion of legitimate evidence from an overturned warrant in which a search was conducted in “good faith” has virtually no chance under the exclusionary rule in the Texas Courts (particularly the West Texas Courts), the Texas Supreme Court or U.S. Supreme Court.
The exclusionary rule is still regularly invoked by criminal defendants, including the FLDS criminals. However its golden age has passed. Since the 1980s, the U.S. Supreme Court has severely limited its application. According to the Court, this rule was not devised to cure all Fourth Amendment violations. Rather, it was designed primarily to deter police misconduct. This construction led to the Good Faith exception to Fourth Amendment violations established in United States v. Leon, 468 U.S. 897, 104 S. Ct. 3405, 82 L. Ed. 2d 677 (1984). The U.S. Supreme Court reversed state courts, holding that “evidence gathered in a search executed pursuant to a warrant later found to be defective should not be excluded from trial.”
Whether or not the warrants were defective, the evidence gathered under them is not a product of deliberate police misconduct. The evidence of criminal activity by FLDS adult males and females is incontrovertible and will be used in their prosecution. There are going to be a lot more inmates in Huntsville. In US v. Leon (1984), the Supreme Court found that the Fourth Amendment “contains no provisions expressly precluding the use of evidence obtained in violation of its commands.” “The exclusionary rule,” according to the majority, “was not designed to be a personal right. It was created by the Court to deter police misconduct rather than to punish the errors of judges and magistrates.” Under this interpretation, excluding evidence obtained through an honest mistake would serve no purpose.
The fact that the warrants were issued in “good faith” by the 51st District Court (Judge Barbara Walther) in Tom Green County (San Angelo), dispels much of allegation of the local prejudice against the sect. Had the warrants come from the Schleicher County Court (Judge Johnny Griffen), local prejudice and bias by the court might be called into question. However, it helps the state’s case that the 51st District Court covers multiple counties and is located in a major urban area (San Angelo). This places it to some degree away from the small town rural politics of Schleicher County.
Most of the later warrants will be upheld because in one way or another they involve polygamy and were issued in good faith. These issues have already been tested in the U.S. Supreme Court and allow for many exemptions of civil rights under the First, Fourth and Fifth Amendments. The decisions regarding religion occurred from 1878 to 1890, when the court was patently biased against the Mormons (See Reynolds v. United States, 98 U.S. 145 (187 8) and The Late Corporation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints v. United States, 136 U.S. 1 (1890), which not only criminalized religious practices, but also permitted seizure of religious property. Unfortunately, unlike Plessy v. Ferguson, 163 U.S. 537 (1896), the decisions are grounded in constitutional law. In spite of 19th century bigotry, overturning them is unlikely.
The exclusionary rule will not work here either because of United States v. Leon (1984), Arizona v. Evans, 514 U.S. 1, 115 S. Ct. 1185, 131 L. Ed. 2d 34 (1995), and Florida v. White, 526 U.S. 559, 119 S. Ct. 1555, 143 L. Ed. 2d 748 (1999). (See Calabresi, Guido. 2003. “The Exclusionary Rule.” Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy 26.)
The federal warrants served by the FBI are all legal because the involve separate statutes. These involve violation of 18 US Code 109A.2243 (Sexual abuse of children), 18 US Code 55.1201 (Kidnapping), 18 US Code 77.1201(a) (Trafficking in Persons), 18 US Code 13.242 (Deprivation of rights under color of law), 18 US Code 47.1071 (Concealing person from arrest), and 18 US Code 47.1073 (Flight to avoid prosecution or giving testimony). All of these warrants are going to stand up. Any evidence seized by federal authorities from an illegal search by state authorities under any of these warrants will also be admissible in federal prosecutions of either state officials or those upon whom the illegal searches were executed (See Florida v. White (1999).
A lot of these FLDS criminals are going to prisons, both Texas and Federal. About half of their offenses will be tried by administrative law judges - no chance of a jury trial here. Criminal trials by juries will probably get them longer sentences. No matter what, The adults taken into custody in the YFZ ranch arrests are facing long years in prison. Finally the children will get some justice.
30. Dr. D. E. Stevenson Says:
April 10, 2008 at 10:24 am
Just a word in defense of the Texas Child Protective Services (CPS) division of the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services (DFPS). I don’t work for the agency. I’am a retired entomologist living in Utah (46 years in Utah (1943-1988, 2006-2008), 19 in Texas (1988-2006)). Texas CPS is presently protecting more than 33,000 children from neglect, abandonment, abuse, exploitation and sometimes mortal danger.
They sometimes don’t arrive on time. One of the mandates by the Texas Family Code (5 TFC 261.004) is the annual Texas Child Fatality Review Teams Biennial Report. Texas has the longest running annual conference for child fatality review in the United States and each year welcomes people from across the nation to learn more about reducing the number of preventable child deaths.
Every year the review teams report about 3,592 child fatalities in Texas. On average, 10 children less than 18 years of age died every day. About half died violently. Violence, either self-inflicted or inflicted by another, remains a leading cause of death for young children and teens.
Each week, on average, five children die violently Texas. About 250 deaths are homicide, most resulting at the hands of parents or guardians. However, since the 78th Texas Legislature put more teeth into the Texas Family Code, child victims of homicide have decline more than 50 percent, from nearly 600 prior to 1999 to about 250 in 2005.
Other reports include child injuries. In 2003, more than 913,000 women were battered in domestic violence. That same year, more than 185,000 children were treated for injuries received in domestic violence incidents. The Texas Family code makes it a crime not to forward reports of domestic violence or abuse (5 TFC 261.109). It was when the report of domestic violence on the YFZ Ranch in Schleicher County Texas was forwarded to the proper authorities that local police and Texas Rangers entered the FLDS community. All of this was mandated by law (5 TFC 261.3011). It is a tribute to the Texas FCS that they stepped in before anyone suffered serious injury or death.
31. Elle Says:
April 10, 2008 at 5:02 pm
How about the women and children who are not educated beyond a second grade level? Who are locked away and held against their will? Where are their constitutional rights? I do believe in the freedom of religion but this did not included women and children being imprisoned mentally and physically. I support the government and their safe raid on this compound. Hopefully, they will be able to help these victims of the FLDS.
32. Dr. D. E. Stevenson, Ph.D. Says:
April 11, 2008 at 9:39 am
Great statement Elle! It is a tribute to Texas that the authorities had the fortitude and the legal authority to intervene on behalf of the women and children held captive by this cult.
33. Dr. Steve Evans, J.D. Says:
April 11, 2008 at 10:04 am
It’s a tribute to Texas that an Aggie with a Ph.D. calls himself “Dr.”
34. Dr. Steve Evans, J.D. Says:
April 11, 2008 at 10:12 am
All right, all right. That was just lame. But so is calling people criminals without evidence, charges, trials or convictions. Also lame is pretending to educate us all on Reynolds. Size up your audience, Doctor.
35. Christopher Says:
April 11, 2008 at 10:33 am
Dr. D.E. Stevenson, Ph.D.,
Your fancy title loses all credibility when you use sensationalistic and provocative language like your statement that these women and children are being “held captive by this cult.”
36. Guy Murray Says:
April 11, 2008 at 9:22 pm
Dr. D.E. Stevenson, Ph.D.
While I appreciate you leaving comments in this ongoing dialouge, I will insist that you no longer refer to the FLDS or any other religious movement, at least while commenting over here, as a “cult”. That is a religious, pornographic/obscene characterization, which I will edit from here on out.
Dr. Steve Evans, J.D. you crack me up.
37. Laura Williams Says:
April 12, 2008 at 6:45 pm
This sounds like another case of liberal, heavy handed social workers ripping children from their parents and asking questions later. Not a single charge has been made against these mothers, but look what is happening to them.
38. seen it before Says:
April 13, 2008 at 6:47 pm
The manner in which the children are being treated in the hands of the state is much worse than you can imagine. Notice for starters that they just took all cels away from the childrena nd are preventing contact with the mothers.
if you want to see proof of who is in charge of torturing those children now, look up Neil Brick and his Dale-Griffis cult and especially look up Bobbi Gagne who is one of the primary activists across a dozen sex-investigation agencies in Vernmont, Howard Dean land, nice secluded cult-like nursery of the people now in charge of terrorizing the children with demands that they accuse their parents of every crime imaginable.
It was said that one of the reasons for the wholesale exodus of the children was the “sight” of the pregnant teenagers.
I am in no way supporting FLDS, but it is from the frying pan to the fire for those children and their mothers.
Look at the screens at the new website thomwhitememorial.blogspot.com and you will see the connection of the Women’s Services to the psychopath group run by self-proclaimed “Manchurian Candidate” Neil Brick and you will wonder where First Baptist comes in, well follow the church trail out from the Neil Brick psychopath group into a whole number of pseudo-denominations designed to cover their tracks.
“Finally the children will get some justice”? I wish you were right, but the state will destroy them and let the men go on a variety of pleas, and they will flee even further into their cult to avoid the filthy cult that is the USA.
The media is not telling anyone that the women have NO civil rights in Texas. This IS a slave state. There is NO ERA here. Judges are elected, and the FLDS has voters.
Change the law to eradicate legal slavery from Texas and then the FLDS and its type of cult would not have a means to control the women in the first place.
39. D E Stevenson, PhD Says:
April 15, 2008 at 11:51 am
seen it before:
Outstanding comments. It is time for a joint federal and multi-state effort to stamp out the organizations that claim descent from Loren C. Wooley (self-appointed defender of religious polygamy), including the FLDS (formerly ), United Apostolic Brethren (Allred group), and United Order Cooperative (Kingston group). These are the largest (approximately 40,000 adherents) and most pernicious of the polygamous religious organizations. Without federal and multi-state actions with supporting changes in present legislation, these and similar organizations can continue to skip across state lines to commit actions patently illegal but seldom prosecuted.
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